Was Jack Dempsey "a joke"?

Interesting you should say that; I just recently stumbled across a Dempsey quote from the aftermath of the first Tunney fight where he attempted to explain his degraded performance: "It's hard to find the motivation to get out of bed at dawn and run in the snow when you're wearing silk underwear." (I don't have the quote in front of me, so that might not quite be verbatim!)

I have heard that quote attributed to a variety of people, from George Foreman to Oscar de la Hoya. The version I heard was something like:

'It's hard to find the motivation to get up at 6 in the morning and go running when you're sleeping on silk sheets.'

If anybody has proper information about who actually said this and what they actually said, I'd be gratified.
 
On Jan 1, 2000, an article was published by former Heavyweight Champ Max Schmeling.

Schmeling's the veteran that knocked a young Joe Louis' brains out in the 1st fight, handing Louis his 1st loss.
The rematch didn't go so well for ol' Max though.

The article was on Dispatch Online (dispatch.co.za), the link is dead now, but here's the article:

___________________________________


Saturday, January 1, 2000

Dempsey Was The Big Daddy
By Max Schmeling

HAMBURG -- This century has provided many dramatic boxing matches and yielded even more unique heroes. Trying to name them all would be asking a little too much.
But my short list of those boxers who will never be forgotten includes -- in alphabetical order -- Mohammed Ali, Henry Armstrong, Georges Carpentier, Julio Cesar Chavez, George Foreman, Harry Greb, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns, Jack Johnson, Ray Leonard, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Carlos Monzon, Archie Moore, Willie Pep, Ray Robinson, and Mike Tyson.

But now I want to add, all by itself, one more name: Jack Dempsey.

Despite all the class shown by the others, Dempsey was not only my own idol, he remains for me to this day the greatest of them all.

He embodied the complete perfection of a professional boxer.

Jack, the ninth of 11 children of an impoverished family of Mormon itinerant workers in Colorado, welded brilliant technique and strategy with a stupendous punch like no other boxer.
His punches came packed with the full power of his entire shoulder span.
He was a nightmare of an opponent.
He hated sharing the ring with anybody else.
He appeared to be a fist-fighter from another planet.
It was no coincidence that they called him the 'man killer'.

Writer Joyce Carol Oates in her famous essay 'On Boxing' was right on target when she said that Dempsey's style of fighting -- fast, direct, and merciless -- has forever put its stamp on the sport of boxing in America, and not only there.
She is also not wrong when she says that today's boxing matches, compared with those of Dempsey's, appear to be harmless minuets.

We never faced each other in a prize fight. Jack's seven-year era as heavyweight world champion ended almost four years before mine began.
Still, we did box twice against each other.
The first time was in 1925, when he was on his honeymoon trip in Europe and made a stop in Cologne where he gave a sampling of his boxing know-how to a few thousand spectators in the city's Luna Park.
I was one of three Cologne boxers who were chosen to go two rounds against him.
The second time was certainly different, coming in May 1933 in New York, when he visited me in training camp four weeks before my fight against Max Baer and wanted to spar with me.
In the first round I landed my right directly in the middle of his nose, which had been operated on, and he quit right there.

By no means do I mean to overglorify him or above all the first half of this century of boxing.
But the fact is that our fights back then were definitely much tougher, much more brutal.
I was still boxing with only four- and five-ounce gloves, and after two rounds they were mostly already torn apart, with only a few patches of tough leather covering my knuckles. The punches were extremely painful.
Back then, there were also only eight weight categories, in which there was, logically, only a single world champion.
It was extremely difficult to box your way to the top.

This is not meant in the slightest to dismiss later achievements, for example those by Mohammed Ali.
It was especially thanks to him that boxing battles gained a new seal of quality.
The heavyweight division will always exert a magical attraction, it is simply in the nature of things.

Still, I must honestly say that for years now I have no longer attended a match and only rarely do I watch a fight on television.
This is because usually everybody knows beforehand who is going to win.
There was in my time, when already the purses were going into the millions, certainly some amount of behind-the-scenes deal-making going on -- and it was not always fair, as I found out for myself on June 8, 1937.
I had already been weighed in, but title defender Jimmy Braddock, against whom I had wanted to become the first boxer to break through the 'they-never-come-back' law, did not appear.
He was then suspended by the New York boxing authority and slapped with a ludicrous fine of a mere $1000.
As it later became evident, this was all a fixed deal.
For Braddock, who was supposedly ill, had already long earlier signed another contract for a title bout against Joe Louis.
The fight took place a few weeks later.
The clincher was a secret clause in which Braddock was guaranteed 10 percent of all his opponent's earnings for the next 10 years.

For the benefit and for the credibility of boxing I would hope that the new century will see a harkening back to the past times -- when there was only one association and only one champion per weight category. It would additionally be nice if a German heavyweight would finally follow in my footsteps.

Let the fight begin!




MAX SCHMELING was born September 28, 1905 in Klein Luckow, Germany. He entered boxing history with his world championship victory in 1930 over Jack Sharkey and with his sensational knockout of Joe Louis in 1936. Schmeling ended his career in 1948 and remains an idol in Germany and a legend in the world of sports, a man who embodies the image of the 'honest guy'. Schmeling today lives in Hollenstedt, near Hamburg. -- Sapa-DP

Max Schmeling
September 28th, 1905
 
That beat down on Willard was so vicious boxing historians believed several of Willard's teeths were knocked out. and he lost part of his hearing after the fight.
 
I found an artice that claims Jack hands were loaded during the Willard fight.His former manger claims to have loaded Jacks gloves before the fight.
It a long one so I am jum going to post spinets from it and a link at the bottom.

I had schemed and connived over too many years to let anything go wrong with a bet like that, let alone with the championship of the world. The hell with being a gallant loser. I intended to win.

My plan had to do with a small white can sitting innocently among the fight gear on the kitchen table. I poured myself a nightcap and picked up the can, grinning at the neat blue letters on its side. All it said was "Talcum Powder." Then I latched the kitchen door and went to a corner cupboard that extended from tabletop height to the ceiling. I pulled over a chair and stood on it to reach into a niche far back on the topmost shelf. Not even a drunk would have thought of hiding a bottle in that spot. Several days earlier, on an unaccompanied trip into Toledo, I had bought another can of powder. This one was labeled "Plaster of Paris," and I was looking for it now. It was there.

A witness from each camp was to observe the bandaging of hands as insurance against jiggery-pokery. I was to supervise Willard's preparations, and his chief second, Walter Moynahan, was to oversee the putting on of Dempsey's wrap.

Leaving one of my handlers behind to make sure no one tampered with Willard's hands, I returned to our dressing room to bandage Dempsey under Moynahan's suspicious supervision. On the way I assumed a friendly and sympathetic attitude toward Willard's chief second.

"You should have dampened those bandages and put on some talcum powder," I told him. "His hands would've been much more comfortable."

"Give me that sponge well soaked with water," I ordered. "I want to keep the kid's hands cool."

In an aside to Moynahan, I told him again: "This is what you should've done for Willard."

The sponge, dripping with water, made a sloshing sound as I clamped it to the bandages on Dempsey's hands. In a moment they were drenched through.

"Now the talcum powder," I directed DeForest, and he passed me that innocent-looking, blue-lettered can. I sprinkled its contents heavily over the soaked bandages.

"No question," I rattled on to the unsuspecting Moynahan as I set the can safely aside, "this really is what you should have done for Willard."

Moynahan made no comment. Dempsey, who was entirely innocent of what had happened, stood there in what amounted almost to a stupor. I had to hide a smile as the call came to enter the ring.


0113_large.jpg



The most famous, flamboyant fight manager of all time - 01.13.64 - SI Vault
 
George Christian, Anamas Campbell, Boston Bearcat, John Lester Johnson, Battling Johnson were all black fighters that Dempsey fought before winning the Title.

Some black dudes that Dempsey boxed in either exhibitions or as sparring partners:

Bearcat Wright
Big Bill Hartwell
George Godfrey
Roy Clark
Big Bill Tate
Battling Johnson
Jamaica Kid
Jack Thompson
William "Battling" Gahee

That ain't all of them either, I don't know how many black guys he sparred or had exhibitions with, but Dempsey's exhibitions shouldn't be discounted.
In those days and earlier, top fighters often boxed in what were called exhibitions. They were in fact fights. Guys got knocked out.

Sometimes they offered money to audience members if they could last 4 rds with the Champ.


Knock down the Champ in one of these exhibitions or make him look bad, and you just might earn yourself a Title-shot just as Jack Munroe did because of an exhibition with Champ James J. Jeffries.
Munroe earned 500 dollars for lasting the 4 rd distance in the exhibition, but was subsequently flattened in 2 rds by Jeffries in the eventual Title-shot.
A Champ couldn't take these too lightly.

Exhibition tours were a good way of making money without actually putting the title on the line.
It was also about avoiding Johnny Law and taxes as a professional Boxing match was illegal in most places, but putting on a 4 rd exhibition wasn't.
The law eventually came down on the exhibitions too as they could see this is no exhibition; these are real fights.
 
I wish Schmeling would have talked about how Dempsey actually was in the ring with him.
 
No. Far from it. A prime Jack Dempsey would give any heavyweight a fight. They might beat him, but it wouldn't be easy. He hit hard and he was so fast...Gene Tunney beat him after he was living the good life for awhile...he wasn't hungry anymore. A young, hungry, mean Demsey would've killed Tunney.
 
George Christian, Anamas Campbell, Boston Bearcat, John Lester Johnson, Battling Johnson were all black fighters that Dempsey fought before winning the Title.

Some black dudes that Dempsey boxed in either exhibitions or as sparring partners:

Bearcat Wright
Big Bill Hartwell
George Godfrey
Roy Clark
Big Bill Tate
Battling Johnson
Jamaica Kid
Jack Thompson
William "Battling" Gahee

That ain't all of them either, I don't know how many black guys he sparred or had exhibitions with, but Dempsey's exhibitions shouldn't be discounted.
In those days and earlier, top fighters often boxed in what were called exhibitions. They were in fact fights. Guys got knocked out.

Sometimes they offered money to audience members if they could last 4 rds with the Champ.


Knock down the Champ in one of these exhibitions or make him look bad, and you just might earn yourself a Title-shot just as Jack Munroe did because of an exhibition with Champ James J. Jeffries.
Munroe earned 500 dollars for lasting the 4 rd distance in the exhibition, but was subsequently flattened in 2 rds by Jeffries in the eventual Title-shot.
A Champ couldn't take these too lightly.

Exhibition tours were a good way of making money without actually putting the title on the line.
It was also about avoiding Johnny Law and taxes as a professional Boxing match was illegal in most places, but putting on a 4 rd exhibition wasn't.
The law eventually came down on the exhibitions too as they could see this is no exhibition; these are real fights.

Thanks very much for this by the way; good to have one of the questions posed in the first post answered!
 
Why would you ask if he was a joke?
Just do some research you fuck.
No he wasnt a joke.
 
Question for Kid McCoy or another experienced poster:

Why is Tunney not held in a higher regard than Dempsey? From my limited understanding Tunney won convincingly in the first fight before the infamous rematch. Even in the long count fight Tunney won almost all the rounds minus the one he was knocked down in (I think the 8th or 9th right).

Now I know Dempsey had to adjust to the increased ring size, the newly enstated 10 count (which cost him the second fight I suppose) and he was no spry chicken...but neither was Tunney. Is there more to this than I am aware of (which I'm sure there is) or was Dempsey just considered more past it than Tunney was?
 
Gene Tunney was a great fighter, but he didn't fight at Heavyweight long enough.
Spent most of his career at Light-Heavyweight.

Won the title against Dempsey, then defended it twice (against Dempsey and Heeney) and retired on top at the peak of his powers.

Tunney also didn't appeal to the masses.

When Rickard promoted Dempsey's fights, crowds of 80 thousand upwards of 120 thousand people showed up..with thousands more outside the doors unable to get into the sold-out venue.

When Rickard promoted Tunney's last defense against Heeney at Yankee Stadium, it drew about 46 thousand fans, and Rickard and the MSG corp lost money. Half the venue was empty.
"Dempsey drew more gate-crashers." - Bill McGeehan


Tunney said he was at his all-time best in the Heeney fight.

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Kid McCoy was fortunate enough to meet the man.

.
 
Gene Tunney was a great fighter, but he didn't fight at Heavyweight long enough.
Spent most of his career at Light-Heavyweight.

Won the title against Dempsey, then defended it twice (against Dempsey and Heeney) and retired on top at the peak of his powers..

Kudos for the response. Even in terms of pound for pound rankings Dempsey is consistently ranked ahead of Tunney. Was this just cause of quality of opposition because for me a light-heavyweight going up and beating Dempsey twice (who's an all-time great in his own right) should be held in higher esteem.
 
Kudos for the response. Even in terms of pound for pound rankings Dempsey is consistently ranked ahead of Tunney. Was this just cause of quality of opposition because for me a light-heavyweight going up and beating Dempsey twice (who's an all-time great in his own right) should be held in higher esteem.

My guess is that Dempsey's esteem has more to do with the impression his aggressive style left on the writers of his time.
 
Why would you ask if he was a joke?
Just do some research you fuck.
No he wasnt a joke.

Just charming. You would know the answer to your question if you had bothered to even glance at the first post in the thread.
 
My guess is that Dempsey's esteem has more to do with the impression his aggressive style left on the writers of his time.

This is true. Dempsey's savagery, power and speed for a heavyweight really captured the boxing public. Plus, the gates for some of his fights were simply huge. When you lost to Tunney, you went to the showers. When you lost to Dempsey you went to the hospital. ;)
 
My guess is that Dempsey's esteem has more to do with the impression his aggressive style left on the writers of his time.

I can totally see that. Even today people talk about Tyson more than any heavyweight that steps in the ring today because of his brutality. There are a few restaurants and bars in Omaha that still have this picture of Dempsey with the Mayor hanging on their walls from when he stopped by during a promotional tour.

Jack%20Dempsey%20and%20Mayor%20Dahlman.jpg


Joe Frazier fought Ron Stander here for the heavyweight title, but you only really see the fight poster in gyms.
 
I found an artice that claims Jack hands were loaded during the Willard fight.His former manger claims to have loaded Jacks gloves before the fight.
It a long one so I am jum going to post spinets from it and a link at the bottom.

I had schemed and connived over too many years to let anything go wrong with a bet like that, let alone with the championship of the world. The hell with being a gallant loser. I intended to win.

My plan had to do with a small white can sitting innocently among the fight gear on the kitchen table. I poured myself a nightcap and picked up the can, grinning at the neat blue letters on its side. All it said was "Talcum Powder." Then I latched the kitchen door and went to a corner cupboard that extended from tabletop height to the ceiling. I pulled over a chair and stood on it to reach into a niche far back on the topmost shelf. Not even a drunk would have thought of hiding a bottle in that spot. Several days earlier, on an unaccompanied trip into Toledo, I had bought another can of powder. This one was labeled "Plaster of Paris," and I was looking for it now. It was there.

A witness from each camp was to observe the bandaging of hands as insurance against jiggery-pokery. I was to supervise Willard's preparations, and his chief second, Walter Moynahan, was to oversee the putting on of Dempsey's wrap.

Leaving one of my handlers behind to make sure no one tampered with Willard's hands, I returned to our dressing room to bandage Dempsey under Moynahan's suspicious supervision. On the way I assumed a friendly and sympathetic attitude toward Willard's chief second.

"You should have dampened those bandages and put on some talcum powder," I told him. "His hands would've been much more comfortable."

"Give me that sponge well soaked with water," I ordered. "I want to keep the kid's hands cool."

In an aside to Moynahan, I told him again: "This is what you should've done for Willard."

The sponge, dripping with water, made a sloshing sound as I clamped it to the bandages on Dempsey's hands. In a moment they were drenched through.

"Now the talcum powder," I directed DeForest, and he passed me that innocent-looking, blue-lettered can. I sprinkled its contents heavily over the soaked bandages.

"No question," I rattled on to the unsuspecting Moynahan as I set the can safely aside, "this really is what you should have done for Willard."

Moynahan made no comment. Dempsey, who was entirely innocent of what had happened, stood there in what amounted almost to a stupor. I had to hide a smile as the call came to enter the ring.


0113_large.jpg



The most famous, flamboyant fight manager of all time - 01.13.64 - SI Vault

Guy was full of it; tried to badmouth Dempsey whenever he could after he was given his marching orders. There's a good article on it all here: Were Dempsey's Gloves Loaded? You Decide!

In short, Kearns had nothing to do with applying the wraps, there are pictures of Dempsey prior to the bout with the wraps on looking fine, and, finally and decisively, there is film footage of Willard examining Dempsey's wraps right before the fight kicks off.

Myth busted, as they say. :icon_chee
 
Guy was full of it; tried to badmouth Dempsey whenever he could after he was given his marching orders. There's a good article on it all here: Were Dempsey's Gloves Loaded? You Decide!

In short, Kearns had nothing to do with applying the wraps, there are pictures of Dempsey prior to the bout with the wraps on looking fine, and, finally and decisively, there is film footage of Willard examining Dempsey's wraps right before the fight kicks off.

Myth busted, as they say. :icon_chee

Thanks for that. Glad to see it was BS. Sound as he was disgruntle person after he was fired.
 
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