Was Jack Dempsey "a joke"?

[Sharkey]

Sam Langford is the best fighter never to be given a title shot.

Papers Past — Grey River Argus — 18 November 1913 — JOHNSON DEPOSED

The International Boxing Union considered him light heavyweight champion obviously, as did plenty of other people in his day. The IBU also declared that the Langford-Jeannette fight was to be for their vacant heavyweight title, which was won by Langford...

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E01EEDD1F3BE633A25752C2A9649D946296D6CF

"The fight was considered in France to be for the heavyweight championship of the world."...The people in France who considered that were the members of the IBU.

Langford was also given, by the National Sporting Club out of London, the title as heavyweight champion of the world after defeating Iron Hague in 1909. Johnson was supposed to fight Langford in a title fight on that date after signing an agreement to do so. But when Johnson backed out the NSC took that as him forfeiting any claim he had, thus substituting Hague in place for the title fight that was won by Langford.

Just some brief stuff, but Langford had a hell of a lot more claim to world titles than the majority of these "world champions" the boxing public holds high nowadays with them and their silly alphabet props.

 

[CraneKick83**]

First of all, I stick by what I said. Secondly, you seem to be quite the boxing historian, but I think you are presenting that history without some necessary details.

..and who beat the P4P#1 of All-Time, Sugar Ray Robinson?
That's right, white dudes like Carmen Basilio, Gene Fullmer, Joey Maxim, Jake LaMotta.

LaMotta fought him 6 times and lost 5. The one fight that he won he was substantially bigger than Sugar. Joey maxim was the light heavyweight champion. I don't even think Maxim threw a single punch that whole fight. The temperature in the ring was something like 105 degrees. Sugar was punching him in the head a lot all night until he finally passed from heat exhaustion. Sugar was not the first person in the ring to pass out that night, the first ref had to be replaced due to the overwhelming heat. To say that Maxim won that fight is technically true but it had nothing to do with his skill as a boxer. Fullmer and Basilio both won 15 round decisions against Robinson. They both lost in the rematch. Fullmer was knocked out for the first time in 44 fights by a Robinson hook that is often referred to as "the perfect punch", and Basilio lost a very one sided decision.

All of that is neglecting that Robinson was in his prime during the late 30s and 1940's. LaMotta is the only man to beat a prime Sugar Ray. By the time Fullmer and Basilio fought him he was damn near 40.

Boxing's not about race; it's about socio-economic position and who's born into the have-nots in life, and turn to fighting to try to get out of poverty.
In early 1900s, plenty of white Americans weren't much better off financially than black Americans.

What? Dempsey's time was the 1920s (and the late teens).
Prior to World War II in the 1940s, Boxing was the most accessible sport for Black dudes.
Baseball, football, and golf didn't allow black guys until after WWII

It is a well established fact that after Jack Johnson no black man was allowed to challenge for the HW title until Joe Lewis. As far as I know, Dempsey never professionally faced a black man, and he certainly didn't have to defend the title against any. Given your assertion that boxing is about socio-economic factors rather than race, It is hard to see how eliminating one of the most economically disadvantaged groups from title contention wouldn't affect significantly the talent pool that the champion would have to defend his title against.

I'm an Irishman. I tend to think of white guys as being MUCH tougher than black guys on average (think Forrest Griffin and Rampage Jackson), and also better power punchers on average (this is a little more tenuous). Black guys, however, are generally more athletic and quicker.

I wasn't trying to disrespect Jack Dempsey as a boxer or a puncher or anything of the sort. I just don't think that you can reasonably argue that he had to fight all of the best fighters of his era. Ray Robinson on the other hand fought and beat everybody his era had to offer(arguably the best era ever), from what would amount to about 20 different weight classes today, and he beat them convincingly. Ray had the best qualities of both black and white fighters: he was tough as nails, he had brutal KO power in both hands, and he was as quick and athletic as anyone who has ever boxed. Ray was simply the best.

 

[CraneKick83**]

A fight's a fight, and if it happened on the street, my money would unquestionably be on Dempsey curb-stomping Ali.

No contest there.

In the ring, Ali at least has a chance.

I agree wholeheartedly on the street fight scenario. In the ring though... If Gene Tunney picked Dempsey apart, I see no reason to think that Ali wouldn't be able to.

 

[Sharkey]

The International Boxing Union considered him light heavyweight champion obviously, as did plenty of other people in his day.

Los Angeles, Feb. 28.--"Fighting" Jim Flynn has opened his training camp at Jack Doyle's Vernon street resort in preparation for his scheduled forty-five-round battle with Sam Langford for the light heavyweight championship, an event slated by the Pacific Athletic club to be held in the Vernor arena on March 17."

- part of a report printed on Mar 1st, 1910 in various sources (copied from Salt Lake Herald on that date)

A light heavyweight championship fight they say?

Result? Langford KO-8

But so what, hey? We'll leave that big hole in the light heavyweight lineage even if Langford did go on to knock out the last acknowledged linear champion in Jack O' Brien not too long afterwards. Bah!

 

[TheRatman]

First this is great thread and I am finding very informative. Keep up the great work guys. I wish I could contribute more but I am not as well schooled in the history of that time period, but i am learning.

I'm an Irishman. I tend to think of white guys as being MUCH tougher than black guys on average (think Forrest Griffin and Rampage Jackson), and also better power punchers on average (this is a little more tenuous). Black guys, however, are generally more athletic and quicker.

This is somewhat interesting to me. I think in general you are right for the most part about whites being tougher then blacks. I am Mexican(American) and grew up in Texas around Gangsters(blacks) and Rednecks(whites) and saw alot of fights between the too. Some of the times the rednecks lost but they seemed to to take an asswhipping alot better the gangsters. I mean the would keep trying even when then where getting beat up and the gangster would then to gurl up or have there friends jump in to help out.

Now, me being Mexican(american) I tend to look at mexican being the toughest around in boxing. I think of Corrales,Chavez sr, Castillo and fighters like them to have been the toughest SOBs ever.There are exception to this theory and I hate to generalize everybody cause there have been plenty of black fighters that were hella tough like Ali,Frazier,Tyson and any fighter from Ghana.

That's just my story and in no way a fact.

 

[Fisticuffa]

First this is great thread and I am finding very informative. Keep up the great work guys. I wish I could contribute more but I am not as well schooled in the history of that time period, but i am learning.




This is somewhat interesting to me. I think in general you are right for the most part about whites being tougher then blacks. I am Mexican(American) and grew up in Texas around Gangsters(blacks) and Rednecks(whites) and saw alot of fights between the too. Some of the times the rednecks lost but they seemed to to take an asswhipping alot better the gangsters. I mean the would keep trying even when then where getting beat up and the gangster would then to gurl up or have there friends jump in to help out.

Now, me being Mexican(american) I tend to look at mexican being the toughest around in boxing. I think of Corrales,Chavez sr, Castillo and fighters like them to have been the toughest SOBs ever.There are exception to this theory and I hate to generalize everybody cause there have been plenty of black fighters that were hella tough like Ali,Frazier,Tyson and any fighter from Ghana.

That's just my story and in no way a fact.

I don't want to turn it into a "race" thing but yeah Mexican Boxers have the most crowd pleasing style, best guys to watch.

Win or lose, they always put on a show for the fans.

There was one slick defensive Mexican Boxer though, Miguel Canto.

I can't wait for the El Perro vs Alcine fight tomorrow, i think he will stop Alcine around round 6 or may be sooner.

And no, I am not Mexican.

 

[TheRatman]

I don't want to turn it into a "race" thing but yeah Mexican Boxers have the most crowd pleasing style, best guys to watch.

Win or lose, they always put on a show for the fans.

There was one slick defensive Mexican Boxer though, Miguel Canto.

I can't wait for the El Perro vs Alcine fight tomorrow, i think he will stop Alcine around round 6 or may be sooner.

And no, I am not Mexican.

yeah I don't want this thread to get side track,cause it is a really good thread, but one thing I have to point out is that Cotto is Purto Rican not Mexican. There both from latin background but there huge difference in the boxing world.I think that is why Cotto has a better defense then most Mexican fighters.

Also, I think Angulo is going to win too, but late stoppage around the 10-11.

 

[CraneKick83**]

Good posts. I'll try to move away from the race angle as well. And yea Frazier was one of the toughest SOB's to ever lace up a pair of gloves, lots of really great hispanic fighters as well, Roberto Duran might be my favorite fighter ever.

 

[Trance]

In what sense? I know this is quite a widespread gripe, but you seldom hear specifics.

Well, I always hear that the addition of strength and conditioning as well as different nutrition makes the fighters of today better than that of yesterday. It fits to an extent, But I stand by what I said; If a fighter of that time was brought to this generation, He can become a champion. It's not like the guys back then didn't have evolving methods of training as well, but they stuck with old methods as well as new; Just like today.

John L Sullavin used evolving methods with his training, Something along the lines of a Heavy bag mixed with a speed bag, as well as things like medicine balls and grip strengtheners. The Bare Knuckle Hall of Fame is at the place where Sullivan was locked in to dry out and later trained for his fight vs. Kilrain.

Bare Knuckle Boxing Hall of Fame

I was hoping they would have pictures of the equipment that was found, but I don't think there are any posted. I hope to take a trip there when I get out of College.

Apparently they found a hidden compartment where he stashed some booze, Lol.

As for my comment about fighters being different in the wrong ways, I personally feel many have lost that grit that showed in Boxers of past generations. I feel like a lot of these guys are pampered, They have the money and they certainly should be able to do it; But I feel like some of them lose it with the money. I remember reading reports of Margo not training as hard after he won the title and got a lot of recognition in the boxing world. You have to train like your poor and fighting your way out of the ghetto at all times to stay sharp, and All these champions should try their hardest to fight everyone. There's some that do, and many that do not. The amount of belts play into this as well, It doesn't mean a lot to have a belt today. Guys that are still prospects are fighting for belt, Like Jacobs, and some already have belts, Like Berto. Back then, If you had a strap it really meant something.

Evolving equipment can make some aspects of training easier as well, Like running shoes. I take for granted whatever shoes I use to run; In Dempsey's time those guy ran in big work boots half of the time. That's crazy.

I also realize fighters back then had tune-up fights as well, But for the most part if there was a challenger that fought his way to a title shot; The champ and number one would fight.

 

[Fisticuffa]

yeah I don't want this thread to get side track,cause it is a really good thread, but one thing I have to point out is that Cotto is Purto Rican not Mexican. There both from latin background but there huge difference in the boxing world.I think that is why Cotto has a better defense then most Mexican fighters.

Also, I think Angulo is going to win too, but late stoppage around the 10-11.

Na I wasn't talking about Cotto, Canto is different:

Miguel Canto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

4. Miguel Canto - A defensive master, he's the Mexican version of Willie Pep. He successfully defended the flyweight title a record 14 times, winning all but one of those fights by 15-round decision, a record that will never be approached for dominance by virtue of pure boxing skill.

"To be a Mexican fighter you first have to be a warrior,'' says Barrera, which explains his exclusion of the slick-boxing Canto among his top five.

"Throw punches from the first bell to the last. It doesn't matter that you get hit as long as you land. That's why I put Olivares on my list. He was a typical Mexican fighter. He was always going forward looking for a knockouts. To me, the list is Salvador Sanchez, Chavez, Ruben Olivares, Vicente Saldivar and (Erik) Morales.''

Thoughts on Boxing, Boxers and Fights: THE GREAT MEXICAN FIGHTERS By Ron Borges

 

[WPM]

Just an after thought, but what about the 14 second knockdown in the second Tunney fight?

So can someone tell me why/if Jack Johnson ever tried/wanted to challenge for the world title again? At a glance it appears that he went over 10 years unbeaten in various bouts and exhabitions around the globe after losing the world title. Only finally losing around the same time Dempsey lost the title to Tunney.

George Godfrey being another solid, black heavyweight who hit good form between Dempsey's 1923 defence against Luis Angel Firpo, and the 1926 loss to Tunney. He was also a fair size at the weight, ranging from 205lb to as high as 225lb in that period. Another avoided black fighter?

Also, how come Dempsey didn't fight at all in the years 1924 and 1925?

 

[TheRatman]

Na I wasn't talking about Cotto, Canto is different:

Miguel Canto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your right, my fault. I misread the name.

 

[Sharkey]

Just an after thought, but what about the 14 second knockdown in the second Tunney fight?

So can someone tell me why/if Jack Johnson ever tried/wanted to challenge for the world title again? At a glance it appears that he went over 10 years unbeaten in various bouts and exhabitions around the globe after losing the world title. Only finally losing around the same time Dempsey lost the title to Tunney.

George Godfrey being another solid, black heavyweight who hit good form between Dempsey's 1923 defence against Luis Angel Firpo, and the 1926 loss to Tunney. He was also a fair size at the weight, ranging from 205lb to as high as 225lb in that period. Another avoided black fighter?

Also, how come Dempsey didn't fight at all in the years 1924 and 1925?

Jack Johnson did make challenges to Dempsey and there were even a few attempts by promoters to match them up. Particularily Sunny Jim Coffroth who made attempts and put some offers Dempsey's way to have the two meet at his horse racing track in Tijuana, Mexico. Dempsey expressed some interest before ultimately declining and giving his reasoning as having to do with Johnson being a convict and whatnot. Didn't make it an issue of race because, at the same time he was declining Johnson's challenge, he was publicly expressing his wishes to fight Wills if that was what the public wanted.

Then again, there was the story told in some papers (Chicago Tribune was one, from what I remember) back then that the two actually met in a secret bout that took place in Saskatchewan, which was written with the result being Dempsey won by KO in 7 rounds. Very, very likely a fabricated story, but interesting nonetheless.

Godfrey was certainly avoided. No doubt about that. Not so much by Dempsey, although Jim Dougherty (Godfrey's manager) did issue a challenge or two his way on behalf of Godfrey. Godfrey even tried to lay claim to Dempsey's championship when Dempsey went through that inactive period you alluded to. But Harry Wills himself certainly ducked the numerous challenges made his way to fight Godfrey. Blatant duck job there and over a couple/few years. Tommy Gibbons avoided Godfrey's challenge. Gene Tunney too was also avoiding a number of Godfrey's public challenges made his way saying that he drew the colour line with Godfrey even though Tunney expressed wishes to fight Wills.

 

[Kid McCoy]

Here is something I hope all the younger fans will remember about fighters:

Saying fighters are better today than they were 90 years ago is like saying sword fighters today are better than they were 500 years ago

 

[Kid McCoy]

^Ah shit... Is that you, Brad?

Just enjoy his good stuff McDuck.

Who knows who was who years ago, right?






TS is a Dr. Ron Tripp fan. I like that.

 

[axhand1e]

I was wondering when the boxing forum heavies were going to start droppin knowledge up in this biatch... bout time

 

[axhand1e]

^Ah shit... Is that you, Brad?

lolz.. . are you who I think you are? :wink:

 

[YukisHeart]

 

[YukisHeart]

Source:

 

[Sharkey]

That's some good shit right there Yukis. Thanks for posting it.