Was Jack Dempsey "a joke"?

[WPM]

In short, Jack Dempsey was not "a joke". He did the best he could, with the tools he had, in his era. Boxing was in the earliest stages of evolution back in those days. He would not stand a chance in the modern day heavyweight division, infact he'd have struggled to be any more than a fringe contender in any era from around 1950 onward. But a man who was classed as the legitimate heavyweight champion of the world in any era is no joke.

Now if you want to talk about the racism in the sport back then, and all the foulplay, that would paint him in a totally different light. Let's just say he done what he had to do, and avoided who he felt he needed to, to get to the pinnacle.

 

[Fisticuffa]

In short, Jack Dempsey was not "a joke". He did the best he could, with the tools he had, in his era. Boxing was in the earliest stages of evolution back in those days. He would not stand a chance in the modern day heavyweight division, infact he'd have struggled to be any more than a fringe contender in any era from around 1950 onward. But a man who was classed as the legitimate heavyweight champion of the world in any era is no joke.

Now if you want to talk about the racism in the sport back then, and all the foulplay, that would paint him in a totally different light. Let's just say he done what he had to do, and avoided who he felt he needed to, to get to the pinnacle.

Why do people have this idea that past greats would get owned by today's HW's?

If a past great was alive today he would be training like today's fighters and fighting in a more "modern" Boxing style.

As Kid McCoy says, fighters are all cut from the same cloth, once you have the basic tool which is a fighters mindset (not athleticism or size) you will adjust to the rules and conditions under which you fight if you are a good fighter.

That's like me saying that all of today's great Boxer's would get owned if they fought bare knuckle greats, again if they lived in the bare knuckle era and trained for those conditions most of them would still be great fighters. If they went way back and fought in the ancient Greek Olympics in Pankration or Boxing, they would still be good fighters had they trained for those conditions.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Dempsey was generally regarded as the best boxer of the first half century.

You can say he was overrated, or he wasn't that good. Fine.

But a joke? You would have to be mentally retarded to seriously think he was a joke.

 

[thatsmydin]

Jack Dempsey was no joke but he did refuse to fight certain black fighters fearing thier athleticism. In other words, if Demsey fought today it would be in a cage.

 

[WPM]

Why do people have this idea that past greats would get owned by today's HW's?

Look a little deeper into the evolution of the sport at heavyweight. A prime Jack Dempsey, at todays standards, would be an average sized cruiserweight. Could you really see him having a chance against the likes of Lennox Lewis, George Foreman, et al? Dempsey was soft looking at 190lb. And that goes without mentioning the evolution of boxing as a sport in general. Watch Dempsey's fight with Willard. It wasn't really sport, more primative combat. He would have been disqualified and banned for life by todays standards.

 

[enswell****]

Sam Langford is the best fighter never to be given a title shot.

Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution:
"Well if he ever fights Dempsey, my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen." - Sam Langford

In 1916, inexperienced 2 year pro Dempsey did turn down a fight with Sam Langford who was a bit past his prime.
Years later, in the early 1920

 

[Fisticuffa]

Look a little deeper into the evolution of the sport at heavyweight. A prime Jack Dempsey, at todays standards, would be an average sized cruiserweight. Could you really see him having a chance against the likes of Lennox Lewis, George Foreman, et al? Dempsey was soft looking at 190lb. And that goes without mentioning the evolution of boxing as a sport in general. Watch Dempsey's fight with Willard. It wasn't really sport, more primative combat. He would have been disqualified and banned for life by todays standards.

I already addressed this.

To repeat, if Dempsey had been born today he would be learning the so called "modern" style that today's Boxers use just like today's Boxer's if they were born when Dempsey was born would have been fighting in that "primitive" style.

Generally speaking, if a fighter was considered the elite in his own era there is a good chance that he would be so today accounting for whatever weight class changes since then of course.

Now if you are assuming a 1920's Dempsey vs 2010 Vitali/Wlad with the same weight difference and style difference etc then yes probably the latter 2 would win.

In Boxing people tend to overrate old fighters but there are many people who overrate today's fighters and how they would do against the old guys.

It's like this, Jesse Owen's was the best sprinter of his day just like Usain Bolt today, the times Owen's put in then may not look much compared to what Bolt put's in today but it would be a mistake to think that Owen's would be owned by Bolt. If Owen's was born when Bolt was and had the same so called modern training and nutrition (and some would claim special "vitamins") that modern sprinters have I am sure he could make it a lot closer than people think.

 

[Fisticuffa]

Also has anyone considered this.

Isn't it likely that guys like Dempsey and SRR were fighting in a bigger talent pool compared to today?

You have to remember back in those glory days, Boxing was probably the largest spectator sport and was more popular than even baseball.

Has anyone looked into the number of registered pro Boxers back then and compared the number to today, keep in mind that raw numbers don't mean much because the world population as a whole has gone up by like 6 times since then.

 

[CraneKick83**]

A joke that could shatter your jaw with a right hand maybe. Ali was just pissed that Dempsey made more money than him 40 years earlier. Although in all fairness Dempsey probably wouldn't have been able to touch Ali with his right. It was a brutal right nevertheless.

 

[CraneKick83**]

Also has anyone considered this.

Isn't it likely that guys like Dempsey and SRR were fighting in a bigger talent pool compared to today?

You have to remember back in those glory days, Boxing was probably the largest spectator sport and was more popular than even baseball.

Has anyone looked into the number of registered pro Boxers back then and compared the number to today, keep in mind that raw numbers don't mean much because the world population as a whole has gone up by like 6 times since then.

I would say Robinson fought during the absolute heyday of boxing. In Dempsey's case black guys weren't allowed to fight so I would have to say no.

 

[Fisticuffa]

Here are some interesting numbers about the number of pro Boxing bout's by decade:

Decade breakdown:
1840s: 3
1850s: 8
1860s: 56
1870s: 156
1880s: 2,614
1890s: 10,433
1900s: 25,275
1910s: 61,756
1920s: 183,065
1930s: 185,131
1940s: 172,159
1950s: 137,986
1960s: 91,802
1970s: 96,724
1980s: 126,662
1990s: 137,718
2000s: 173,752

Boxing Record Archive • View topic - Total Bouts in the BoxRec Database: By Decade

As you can see the absolute peak was 1920's and 1930's, we still haven't managed to reach back to that number to this day even though the world population as a whole has gone up greatly.

If you go by individual year, then 1946 had the highest with 28,515 pro bouts that year (the stats are in that link).

I am not saying this is the final word on the question of talent pool but it does give us some idea.

On a side note, looks like we just had our best decade in terms of bout numbers in about 3 decades though world pop has also gone up, not bad for a "dying" sport eh?

 

[thelyricalmaste]

I already addressed this.

To repeat, if Dempsey had been born today he would be learning the so called "modern" style that today's Boxers use just like today's Boxer's if they were born when Dempsey was born would have been fighting in that "primitive" style.

Generally speaking, if a fighter was considered the elite in his own era there is a good chance that he would be so today accounting for whatever weight class changes since then of course.

Now if you are assuming a 1920's Dempsey vs 2010 Vitali/Wlad with the same weight difference and style difference etc then yes probably the latter 2 would win.

In Boxing people tend to overrate old fighters but there are many people who overrate today's fighters and how they would do against the old guys.

It's like this, Jesse Owen's was the best sprinter of his day just like Usain Bolt today, the times Owen's put in then may not look much compared to what Bolt put's in today but it would be a mistake to think that Owen's would be owned by Bolt. If Owen's was born when Bolt was and had the same so called modern training and nutrition (and some would claim special "vitamins") that modern sprinters have I am sure he could make it a lot closer than people think.

That's a pretty big presumption. In effect, you are arbitrarily boosting Dempsey's physical stats without making an adjustment for how those changes would affect him. Would a well-fed Dempsey be the "Manassa Mauler"? Is PPV Dempsey still a tough minded fighter? We don't know.

All we can say is that Dempsey brought some innovations to the sport and was dominant in his era. His era was also filled with smaller men with less strength and power.

 

[Kakimori]

...who were by and large better boxers than they are today?

 

[enswell****]

I would say Robinson fought during the absolute heyday of boxing.

..and who beat the P4P#1 of All-Time, Sugar Ray Robinson?
That's right, white dudes like Carmen Basilio, Gene Fullmer, Joey Maxim, Jake LaMotta.

Who whupped a prime Sugar Ray Leonard's butt?
Roberto Hands of Stone Duran.

Who whupped maywetaher's @$$ and got robbed, giving him such a scare that maywetaher began ducking every top guy for 9 years?
Jose Luis Castillo.

Boxing's not about race; it's about socio-economic position and who's born into the have-nots in life, and turn to fighting to try to get out of poverty.
In early 1900s, plenty of white Americans weren't much better off financially than black Americans.

In Dempsey's case black guys weren't allowed to fight so I would have to say no.

What? Dempsey's time was the 1920s (and the late teens).
Prior to World War II in the 1940s, Boxing was the most accessible sport for Black dudes.
Baseball, football, and golf didn't allow black guys until after WWII.

Also, Dempsey's parents both carried Native-American heritage.

Black guys still fought for Titles circa Dempsey's era, before his era too, just not for the Heavyweight Title.

There were black World Champions like George Dixon, Tiger Flowers, Joe Gans, the original Joe Walcott (Not Jersey Joe Walcott of the 1940s), and of course, Jack Johnson.
Panama Al Brown, Battling Siki, Kid Chocolate, John Henry Lewis.

Regarding Marciano, sure Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Joe Louis were all older fighters, but with all that experience and superior technique and
natural advantages, you'd think at least one of them would have been able to stop the much cruder Rocky the way an old wise 42 year old Larry Holmes was able to shut
down a prime Ray Mercer for example.
Yet none of them could do the trick to the Rock despite multiple chances as Charles and Walcott both got.
The man could fight, Marciano is in fact a great fighter.

In 1950, Dempsey was voted as the Greatest fighter of the half-century.
The Associated Press conducted a poll of sportswriters to name the greatest fighter of all-time, pound-for-pound, and
they named Dempsey as the greatest fighter they had ever seen. Joe Louis came 2nd, Henry Armstrong came 3rd.



Look at the current Heavyweight scene for the past decade!!
Black guys are certainly allowed to challenge for the Heavyweight Title nowadays, but the Russians are too good for the Black Americans.
There's a single Black guy in the Heavyweight Top 10, and he's British, and his mother is white.


^ See what I did there.

Calzaghe whupping both Roy Jones and Hopkins and a prime Lacy; hell, he ruined Lacy.

Pavlik and Arthur Abraham destroying Hopkin's Middleweight Heir, Jermaine Taylor.
There's Bute, Kessler, Froch, Martinez, Maidana.

PACQUIAO, "Fighter of the Decade", is he black?


I don't want to turn this into a race thing, but I get tired of dudes who cop-out with race-baiting talking boxing without a leg to stand on.
It's like with some people how any argument or problem in their life is because they're black (or Native-American or whatever their race may be, always playing the race-card for everything.)


Thumbs down to racism.

.

 

[WPM]

I think, boxing back then was more a primitive form of martial arts. Now it is most definately a sport.

In my generalizations, I am talking in terms of say, if you took Dempsey the day he beat Willard, and put him in against Lennox Lewis the day of the first Holyfield fight, or something along those lines pertaining to the fights they looked the best in.

If you start talking about all this, "well if Dempsey was born in 1970 and had all the same training and this and that as modern fighters...", it just gets kinda hard to keep up with. We go with what we have in front of us, we can't really start imagining things like that one way or the other.

I like this thread, is very imformative. Have to say I've learnt alot from it.

 

[JerseyRob]

Gattiw was passede his prime when he fought Floyd......

It's really hard to define Gatti's prime but I do think it's funny that you point that out as if it would have mattered.

 

[enswell****]

A fight's a fight, and if it happened on the street, my money would unquestionably be on Dempsey curb-stomping Ali.

No contest there.

In the ring, Ali at least has a chance.

 

[Sigh GunRanger]

Here are some interesting numbers about the number of pro Boxing bout's by decade:

As you can see the absolute peak was 1920's and 1930's, we still haven't managed to reach back to that number to this day even though the world population as a whole has gone up greatly.

If you go by individual year, then 1946 had the highest with 28,515 pro bouts that year (the stats are in that link).

I am not saying this is the final word on the question of talent pool but it does give us some idea.

On a side note, looks like we just had our best decade in terms of bout numbers in about 3 decades though world pop has also gone up, not bad for a "dying" sport eh?

How many of those guys were bums though? More people have money for better training and nutrition than they did then.

 

[Trance]

Jack Dempsey is far from a joke, In fact, He's a great fighter. (Yes I'm aware of my bias.)

I think a fighter is a fighter. The way he learned his craft and style along with the grit, mental fortitude and natural fighter qualities he's shown; You can easily add him into any era and he'll be a fine fighter, even a titlist. He was the the type, I believe, that could learn much like the way he did back then. He traveled and learned while traveling and fighting. Never underestimate determination, anger and serious pop in those punches.

I would say the same about many, many fighters through history, All of these guys were/are special and To rule or be a titlist in any weight division at anytime meant they were something. They all put the work in, they all had talent, they all had determination and ferocity to some extent; Why are the fighters today so different? They are quite different, But too many of them in all the wrong ways.

 

[Fisticuffa]

How many of those guys were bums though? More people have money for better training and nutrition than they did then.

That's true, especially the nutrition part but I don't think more "money" has made much of a difference.

Boxing really hasn't been the sport of the affluent (in terms of fighters I mean) and I don't think more people having money to spare has changed the game that much. Back in the day when more people were poor you had like a Boxing gym on every street corner, nothing like that today.

But good point about nutrition.