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definitely played a part, cro cop/fedor had never trained in a cage.. but they wasn't in their prime when they entered ufc/strikeforce.
was it the decline or better competition?
- Thread starter karateisundratd
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definitely played a part, cro cop/fedor had never trained in a cage.. but they wasn't in their prime when they entered ufc/strikeforce.
Couture was still winning title fights in the UFC well into his 40's. The age argument is pretty good against most but guys like Chuck, Randy and Coleman who were still fighting with the best into their 40's are the exception to that rule.
What I'm basically saying is that because Coleman was old doesn't mean he was a sub-par win on Fedor's record.
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This, right off the hop.
Its silly to just assume he never would have lost to them in pride. He was subbed by werdum, gnp by bigfoot, caught by hendo. That's simply a possible outcome in fights against those guys. Fight enough guys that dangerous, and you eventually get caught. Even if the odds are in your favor.
He was old, inactive, and hadn't been beating top fighters.
He's a quality win, but with limits.
But in 2001 I don't think Sakurai was "the man".
Nog had an awesome year, winning a RINGS tourney, along with beating Heath Herring, Goodridge and Coleman.
Couture too had a successful year, beating Randleman for the UFC HW belt, and defending it twice against Pedro Rizzo.
I'm not saying Sakurai was a bad fighter, but in 2001, the 2 guys I just listed were already more worthy of a P4P #1 Ranking. And I'm saying this from within the context of 2001, without bringing in their legacies that they would have in the future to affect my judgement.
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But that's just the thing. Guys like Goodridge and Heath Herring would be nobodies in today's game.
It's like Matt Hughes; yeah he is past his prime but even in his prime he wouldn't be champ today. There are guys out there with just as good or better wrestling, with better striking. Prime Hughes loses to the majority of top 10 WWs.
And guys like Frank Trigg and Tetsuji Kato would be nobodies in today's game aswell.
Like I said, I was judging them from within the context of 2001, when Herring and Goodridge were legit Top 15 fighters, and good wins for Nog's resume at the time.
Jackonflame
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I think it certainly has to be a factor. Think about how fights in Pride would be stopped then restarted in the middle of the ring. No such thing inside a cage.
And you're right, it wasn't just Fedor that didn't adapt well, there were others.
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Couture and Hendo are the exception, Coleman was the norm. He got old and never won a meaningful fight again(arm breaks aside). The Bonnar fight is a nice feather in his cap but that is a far cry from the shit Couture and Hendo have been doing in their 40s.
No comparison.
There is no real argument that you can make to claim Coleman wasn't over the hill.
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I can appreciate that this is your opinion but I think the most objective way to handle discussions like this is to go with consensus opinion at the time. If you want to protest Sakurai being the absolute #1 p4p fighter in the world, ok. But the mere fact he was considered such puts him in that elite company.
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I just can't believe that people just assume guys like Nog, Fedor, Cro Cop, Wand, etc were never good because they aren't at the top of their game in modern times. It was a different era and the were the best of the best at their time.
The sport evolves, training gets better, nutrition gets better. The guys mentioned above were in their prime in PRIDE. If you took the same prime fighter in PRIDE and put them in modern UFC, they would probably be lost and you'd see them losing on the undercard. The sport has grown and guys are more well rounded now. That doesn't make them any less special. They were a product of their time.
It's a weird analogy but I think it works. It would be like expecting a modern video game like Grand Theft Auto 5 to look just as good on the Playstation 2. It's not happening. Just like the technology evolved, fighters and the sport evolved.
The sport evolves, training gets better, nutrition gets better. The guys mentioned above were in their prime in PRIDE. If you took the same prime fighter in PRIDE and put them in modern UFC, they would probably be lost and you'd see them losing on the undercard. The sport has grown and guys are more well rounded now. That doesn't make them any less special. They were a product of their time.
It's a weird analogy but I think it works. It would be like expecting a modern video game like Grand Theft Auto 5 to look just as good on the Playstation 2. It's not happening. Just like the technology evolved, fighters and the sport evolved.
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I think that in general there is better competition nowadays. However, Fedor in his prime was so impressive. There is nobody as impressive as Fedor today. He was complete, brutal and with granite chin. He would take down Nogueira as he was playing with a child. He took Crocop's high kick and Kevin Randleman's slam and came back for the kill without displaying any loss of confidence. Regardless the level of competition, he is the absolute GOAT.
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coleman/bonnar should clear up all the shit about todays fighters being better than the old..
old coleman dominated bonnar
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pwned
that's more like it! (the AV)
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If I recall didnt his trainers pretty much confirmed he hadnt trained properly since 2008
after being battered by bigfoot he started to train semi serious again but too little too late to avoid the loss to hendo (who prob would have always been a danger anyway to such a small hw)
after being battered by bigfoot he started to train semi serious again but too little too late to avoid the loss to hendo (who prob would have always been a danger anyway to such a small hw)
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Fedor claimed in one interview that he had a lot on his mind with his family and life in general in his last few fights. I think when he said it was "High time to retire" and then he kept fighting, it was pretty obvious he was forced back in.
The rumor was he was told a lot of people had jobs because of him and he would let them down by quitting.
He fought like it too. Just went in and brawled looking to end the fight as soon as possible. He was a man that was done mentally.
Cro Cop was the opposite where he fought very timid and carefully. He wanted to avoid injury as much as possible because he knew one more could be the end.
The rumor was he was told a lot of people had jobs because of him and he would let them down by quitting.
He fought like it too. Just went in and brawled looking to end the fight as soon as possible. He was a man that was done mentally.
Cro Cop was the opposite where he fought very timid and carefully. He wanted to avoid injury as much as possible because he knew one more could be the end.
