was it the decline or better competition?

fedor/cro cop/nog slowed down just like the ufc guys from the same era, chuck/tito/couture/timmeh..

fedor started to decline in 2008 imo, he wasn't looking that good against arlovski/rogers and started to become a brawler.. 03/04 fedor was an animal and could beat any fighter today.

also lol @ bali
 
Balli said:
Better competition.

Trust the join date. I watched Fedor through his whole career, unlike anybody else who will post in this thread. Guaranteed.
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lol at the mma elite act :D
 
Decline.

You can't say that 10 years of fighting professionally at the highest levels of a sport (for Fedor and Cro Cop, two sports including Combat Sambo and Kickboxing, respectively), with many physically draining wars being shared in that time, had nothing to do with their decline. I mean, I'm not hating on him, but do you really think that Gonzaga is a superior fighter to Barnett (a current top 10 HW, and has been one for most of the past 10 years) and Wanderlei Silva, and that the reason Cro Cop lost to him was all just Gonzaga being a part of superior competition, and that him physically and psychologically declining had nothing to do with it and was a non-issue (if not being outright false in its entirety)? Or do you think the fact that Fedor only trained for two or three weeks for each fight he had between Arlovski and Dan Henderson (though to be fair, he did spend those two weeks in Holland for the Hendo fight), showing he wasn't psychologically in his prime anymore as he wasn't willing to put in the effort to train properly, had nothing to do with his performances in those fights? Or that Nogueira getting knocked out by Velasquez was all just Velasquez being a harder puncher than anyone else he's fought, and that making a mistake in the fight and getting powerbombed by 400 pounds of muscle in Bob Sapp and taking various other bombs from Barnett, Couture, Sylvia, Mir, Cro Cop, Herring, and Kharitonov doesn't mean he can't take a punch as well as he used to?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything bad about the current generation of fighters, but you can't attribute their downfall solely, or even mainly, to something like "superior competition faced".
 
They definitely declined physically but the sport also evolved.

Fedor and Nog would be top hws in todays division but they wouldnt dominate. CC would look more like Pat Barry or Lavar Johnson.
 
TheComebackKid said:
They definitely declined physically but the sport also evolved.

Fedor and Nog would be top hws in todays division but they wouldnt dominate. CC would look more like Pat Barry or Lavar Johnson.
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lol @ lavar

neither of them are top hw's..
 
TheComebackKid said:
CC would look more like Pat Barry or Lavar Johnson.
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1287682448_somersault-fail.gif
 
TheComebackKid said:
I know and CC wouldnt be either. No ground game.
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CC trained with Werdum since 2004, had excellent TDD and was only ever tapped by the best grappler in MMA at the time they fought, Nog.

He's also beaten many BJJ Black Belts (Wand, Barnett x3, Perosh) and great wrestlers (Coleman, submitted Randleman, and Fujita).

CC had a solid ground game, and whilst him submitting Barry and Randleman doesn't exactly mean he'll be winning any ADCC titles anytime soon, saying he had "no ground game" is beyond stupid.
 
TheComebackKid said:
They definitely declined physically but the sport also evolved.

Fedor and Nog would be top hws in todays division but they wouldnt dominate. CC would look more like Pat Barry or Lavar Johnson.
Click to expand...

Please...
 
Idonotbelieveit said:
also watch cro cop's second fight with barnett, he mounted josh barnett for like 2-3 minutes.

cro cop is nothing like lavar lol..
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you've got to remember, this is the same guy who said shit like "Franklin = Nog" when comparing Fedor and Anderson's careers.
 
eXtv said:
you've got to remember, this is the same guy who said shit like "Franklin = Nog" when comparing Fedor and Anderson's careers.
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hah, was it?

i expect this shit from lucario and rocket cat..
 
King Fisher said:
I find the honesty in this thread quite refreshing (as opposed to many others I have read in the past).

I'd like to use Ichiro as an example for this dicussion. That guys should have been on the downside of his career when he finally came to the MLB, but he was still a stud, regardless of the competition he faced in Japan. If it's the same sport, it's the same sport.

Studs in Pride who came over to the UFC were still studs. They just got older, and I'm not saying necessarily "better" competition, but different. As people have pointed out, some of them fought with different styles and paces than they were accustomed to. No 10 minute first round. No yellow cards. No soccer kicks or knees to the head of a downed opponent. There was an adjustment period, and for some that was just long enough to hit the downside of their careers.

I'm not making any excuses for them (I'm equally disappointed in some of their transitions to the UFC competition), but we'll never know how Prime Pride HW's would do against Prime UFC HW's during that specific era.

The new breed of HW MMA fighters have the advantage as most modern athletes do. Nutrition. Training. Skills. They have the luxury of learning from a history of MMA, while the studs from Pride were actually making it.
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Not everybody get old in the same way, even regular guys, not fighters, at the same age and with the same life style one guy can be in shape and the other no, Ichiro , Jeter, Henderson and others are exceptions, not the rule, we can not use them to compare the rest
 
eXtv said:
CC trained with Werdum since 2004, had excellent TDD and was only ever tapped by the best grappler in MMA at the time they fought, Nog.

He's also beaten many BJJ Black Belts (Wand, Barnett x3, Perosh) and great wrestlers (Coleman, submitted Randleman, and Fujita).

CC had a solid ground game, and whilst him submitting Barry and Randleman doesn't exactly mean he'll be winning any ADCC titles anytime soon, saying he had "no ground game" is beyond stupid.
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CC couldn't last literally 10 seconds on the ground with Nog. Coleman and Randleman were pretty far gone by the time CC fought them. Barnett is a good win to stand on I agree with that.

But theres no way CC would stay on his feet against guys like DC, Lesner, Cain and if he went to the ground with Mir, Werdum, Struve, or Roy chances are he would get tapped.
 
eXtv said:
you've got to remember, this is the same guy who said shit like "Franklin = Nog" when comparing Fedor and Anderson's careers.
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You should really stop lying. I said Hendo = Nog and Franklin = CC. Get it right. There is no need to distort and lie to try and make a point.
 
Idonotbelieveit said:
hah, was it?

i expect this shit from lucario and rocket cat..
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I would never argue that Franklin was on Nog's level. Extv is one of those types who mischaracterize and distort what people are actually saying to try and paint them in a certain light.

LOL @ Franklin = Nog
 
A little of column A and a little of column B.

Imo his skills and patience weren't really there near the end of his career, but there was no doubt that he was facing a more consistent high level of competition.
 
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