WAR ROOM LOUNGE V13: Ministry of Silly Talks

[Jack V Savage]

Mir hater CONFIRMED!!!

It's always been weird to me that he has hardcore fans. You don't see similar-caliber fighters like, say, Neil Magny or Justin Gaethje (who, like Mir, is very fun to watch) have a group of posters committed to pushing them as all-time greats.

 

[HomerThompson]

It's always been weird to me that he has hardcore fans. You don't see similar-caliber fighters like, say, Neil Magny or Justin Gaethje (who, like Mir, is very fun to watch) have a group of posters committed to pushing them as all-time greats.

Mir is a 2 time HW champ though. I'd put him more with someone like Eddie Alvarez, or RDA.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Yeah. I can see it being annoying when it's Rogan doing it, though. But who the fuck really knows if DJ is better than Khabib or Whittaker? His division is dogshit, but he looks spectacular. I remember people freaking out about Honda getting listed, too.



Yeah, I think everyone gets tired of the HWs and then look around and gets drawn in somewhere. I remember some troll, I think KONE, was saying that I was run off the HWs because Mir fans' arguments were so devastating or something. It's hilarious how seriously people take minor MMA-related disagreements once you're out of the habit yourself (when you're in it, it's much more understandable). "X is the 6th-best fighter in the world in his division." "You're just saying that because you HATE X, who is actually the 4th-best fighter in his division!" "No, you're just saying that because X is your hero!"

Who is your top 5 P4P in MMA?

 

[Falsedawn]

This is going to make you question how I define friends but for my sixteenth birthday, my friends woke me up by putting a bag over my head, putting me in a truck bed like that and driving to where they had a surprise party set up. I think they realized I couldn't be mad once I realized there was a party. I really didn't know what the fuck was going on though until I got out.

Nope, sounds like something we would do.

Only a friend would kidnap your ass in the dead of night for the lols. Bonus points in the future story if you begged for forgiveness.

 

[Makani]

I wish Holloway wasn't having so many problems, every second is another moment of his peak gone.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Mir is a 2 time HW champ though. I'd put him more with someone like Eddie Alvarez, or RDA.

One-time promotional beltholder and one-time interim promotional beltholder. Fedor was the HW champ at the time that Mir beat Sylvia, and at the time that he beat Nog. Alvarez and RDA were both actual champs.

Who is your top 5 P4P in MMA?

In no order and not counting Jones (the GOAT, by far, IMO) DJ, Khabib, Holloway, Whittaker and Dillashaw.

 

[Black Helicopters]

Yea and in reality, I think outside of Sherdog, that's what most people are doing too. Like Rogan is promoting but he changes who's the P4P guy based on what event is coming up. It's just a silly measure but gives more credence to someone who is not just a champ but starting to have a legacy beyond just the belt.



I always find it funny how the community here stays around even after the interest in MMA fades. I honestly have fallen off a lot too. I would say I only follow the title picture of each division now and after that, I'm a bit lost if they didn't start showing a ranking.



I think that would be very hard to make and justify whatever results it made like you said. I think the only people who have a decent idea about how good a division is are training partners in the gym and I'm not talking them on camera talking up a teammate. I mean them sparring hard and realizing despite being 145, they are getting outmatched by a 135 or 125 guy. Even then, you aren't getting a completely clear picture.

I feel bad for 135 and 125 actually because I never think they got established enough to gain the recognition 145 did after the WEC merger. You could easily see guys dropping from 155 to 145 and not dominating the division as a result. With 135 and 125, you didn't get the same benefit. Faber dropped and did decent aside from Cruz. It took Dillashaw and Garbrant to make the division seem strong to me.

I stopped watching MMA in like 2012, 2013 latest. I took long breaks from SD but always come back.

 

[HomerThompson]

One-time promotional beltholder and one-time interim promotional beltholder. Fedor was the HW champ at the time that Mir beat Sylvia, and at the time that he beat Nog. Alvarez and RDA were both actual champs.



In no order and not counting Jones (the GOAT, by far, IMO) DJ, Khabib, Holloway, Whittaker and Dillashaw.

I still think comparing Mir to Gaethje and Magny is silly. You're also losing me with your pedantry. I agree Fedor was the man, but that doesn't diminish Mir.

Magny and Justin have never been near to a major title. How is RDA's career better than Mir's? They're directly comparable to me. Alvarez too, really.

 

[Makani]

One-time promotional beltholder and one-time interim promotional beltholder. Fedor was the HW champ at the time that Mir beat Sylvia, and at the time that he beat Nog. Alvarez and RDA were both actual champs.



In no order and not counting Jones (the GOAT, by far, IMO) DJ, Khabib, Holloway, Whittaker and Dillashaw.

I like it, mine has DJ, Khabib, and Holloway, not sure about Whittaker, I wanted to slip him in on the bottom end but he's kind of a quiet fighter who doesn't get that hype around him. Reliable in every fight though, no off nights. No Cormier?

 

[Fawlty]

I wish Holloway wasn't having so many problems, every second is another moment of his peak gone.

First noticed Holloway when he came in to fight Poirier. I thought, "who the fuck is this guy who's getting fed to the dogs?!" I was handicapping for the Plat betting thing that existed before we had vBookie. There was plenty of tape on Max and I ended up a huge fan while trying to set that line.

 

[Makani]

First noticed Holloway when he came in to fight Poirier. I thought, "who the fuck is this guy who's getting fed to the dogs?!" I was handicapping for the Plat betting thing that existed before we had vBookie. There was plenty of tape on Max and I ended up a huge fan while trying to set that line.

If he could stay healthy he'd easily be my favorite fighter. I love anyone from the islands, but I thought he was too skinny to last. He is such a precise, aggressive striker though, and he's filled out nicely. Hopefully we'll all be Blessed again soon.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I still think comparing Mir to Gaethje and Magny is silly. You're also losing me with your pedantry. I agree Fedor was the man, but that doesn't diminish Mir.

Magny and Justin have never been near to a major title. How is RDA's career better than Mir's? They're directly comparable to me. Alvarez too, really.

I don't think it's pedantry. RDA beat the LW champ of the world. Mir beat arguably the No. 5 HW in the world (and earned the "title shot" with two wins over Wes Sims and one over Tank Abbott after getting KO'd by Ian Freeman). He's comparable to guys who had two wins over top-5 opponents as highlights of longer careers with a lot of blemishes. Frankly, both of the guys I listed are better fighters than Mir was. RDA was on p4p lists, defended the real title, moved up and beat an ex-champ and another top contender, earned the title shot, etc. Mir's career was not remotely on RDA's level.

 

[Fawlty]

If he could stay healthy he'd easily be my favorite fighter. I love anyone from the islands, but I thought he was too skinny to last. He is such a precise, aggressive striker though, and he's filled out nicely. Hopefully we'll all be Blessed again soon.

He replaced Condit as my fave when Carlos fell off after the Lawler robbery. I thought his development was handled perfectly by the UFC after the Poirier mistake, which is something they don't always get right. Like you said, he had to fill out and now that he's man-strong, he's just a damn beast.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I like it, mine has DJ, Khabib, and Holloway, not sure about Whittaker, I wanted to slip him in on the bottom end but he's kind of a quiet fighter who doesn't get that hype around him. Reliable in every fight though, no off nights. No Cormier?

Cormier's great. I have no problem with putting him over one of those guys, but that's my list.

 

[HomerThompson]

I don't think it's pedantry. RDA beat the LW champ of the world. Mir beat arguably the No. 5 HW in the world (and earned the "title shot" with two wins over Wes Sims and one over Tank Abbott after getting KO'd by Ian Freeman). He's comparable to guys who had two wins over top-5 opponents as highlights of longer careers with a lot of blemishes. Frankly, both of the guys I listed are better fighters than Mir was. RDA was on p4p lists, defended the real title, moved up and beat an ex-champ and another top contender, earned the title shot, etc. Mir's career was not remotely on RDA's level.

Of course it's pedantry. Fedor was still only a promotional belt holder. We all recognize him as the best HW in the world at that time, but that doesn't magically make his belt universal.

Same with RDA. He beat the UFC LW champ. There is no universal world championship in MMA. When we say HW champ, or LW champ, we're referring to belts from particular organizations. Calling it a "promotional belt" to lessen its importance is pure pedantry, which you now refuse to apply to current UFC fighters. Was BJ Penn just the "promotional belt" holder because Pride was operating at the time?

RDA started his career terribly(relatively speaking), and his later success doesn't erase that. And now you're saying Magny and Justin are better fighters than Mir. That's idiotic. Justin has been exposed in the UFC as nothing more than heart and chin. Mir had excellent BJJ skill.

I don't even have Mir top 10 all time at HW, but you really do seem to dislike him irrationally. I mean, honestly Jack, what has Neil Magny done in his career for you to claim he has had a better career, or is a better fighter than Mir?

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

One-time promotional beltholder and one-time interim promotional beltholder. Fedor was the HW champ at the time that Mir beat Sylvia, and at the time that he beat Nog. Alvarez and RDA were both actual champs.



In no order and not counting Jones (the GOAT, by far, IMO) DJ, Khabib, Holloway, Whittaker and Dillashaw.

That's a good list...

Damn shame that DJ has very little fab base, recognition, buzz or anything...

I kinda slept on Whitaker....didn't really notice him until recently.

Holloway is one of the most improved fighters I've seen.

As for dillishaw, has he always been good?

He fucked up the last leg of a 9 game/fight parlay for me when he destroyed Barao.

I think he was 6 to 1 dog at the time.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Of course it's pedantry. Fedor was still only a promotional belt holder. We all recognize him as the best HW in the world at that time, but that doesn't magically make his belt universal.

He was the consensus best fighter in the division. Earned the shot with a win over a highly ranked opponent, and took the title with a win over the consensus top fighter in the division. There's no way anyone can reasonably claim that Sylvia had any claim on the HW title or any reason why he'd be treated any differently than any other No. 5-ranked fighter in a division. There's nothing magical about a belt. Mir also didn't have a record that indicated that he'd be in line for a title shot (granted he was a replacement, but that just highlights how few of the top HWs the UFC had at the time).

Same with RDA. He beat the UFC LW champ.

But he beat the guy who beat Bendo, who beat Edgar, who beat Penn. There's a lineage in there that no one could reasonably argue with. Pettis was the man at the time that RDA beat him. And RDA legitimately earned a title shot, with wins over a couple of contenders.

There is no universal world championship in MMA. When we say HW champ, or LW champ, we're referring to belts from particular organizations. Calling it a "promotional belt" to lesson it's importance is pure pedantry, which you now refuse to apply to current UFC fighters. Was BJ Penn just the "promotional belt" holder because Pride was operating at the time?

See, I'd argue that THIS is pedantry. There was no dispute about Penn being the champ (or Fedor). I'm actually saying, dispense with pedantry and let's admit what we all know to be true. I don't think you really think that Sylvia had a better claim to the HW belt than Fedor did, right?

RDA started his career terribly(relatively speaking), and his later success doesn't erase that. And now you're saying Magny and Justin are better fighters than Mir. That's idiotic. Justin has been exposed in the UFC as nothing more than heart and chin. Mir had excellent BJJ skill.

Meh. I disagree. I picked guys who were around top 5 in their divisions at their best, just as Mir was. I think that they are actually both much better fighters relative to their divisions than he is.

I don't even have Mir top 10 all time at HW, but you really do seem to dislike him irrationally. I mean, honestly Jack, what has Neil Magny done in his career for you to claim he has had a better career, or is a better fighter than Mir?

Magny has more wins, fewer losses, more good wins, better average competition. Putting aside irrelevant belts, what's the argument for Mir being better? Qualitative assessment? I disagree.

The issue isn't specific to any individual. I just believe in ranking guys by their records (adjusted for opponent quality) and how they fight. I don't put much emphasis on what I regard as meaningless promotional belts.

 

[Limbo Pete]

I mean, I know Jack hates Mir, but it still catches me off guard sometimes lol

 

[HomerThompson]

He was the consensus best fighter in the division. Earned the shot with a win over a highly ranked opponent, and took the title with a win over the consensus top fighter in the division. There's no way anyone can reasonably claim that Sylvia had any claim on the HW title or any reason why he'd be treated any differently than any other No. 5-ranked fighter in a division. There's nothing magical about a belt. Mir also didn't have a record that indicated that he'd be in line for a title shot (granted he was a replacement, but that just highlights how few of the top HWs the UFC had at the time).



But he beat the guy who beat Bendo, who beat Edgar, who beat Penn. There's a lineage in there that no one could reasonably argue with. Pettis was the man at the time that RDA beat him. And RDA legitimately earned a title shot, with wins over a couple of contenders.



See, I'd argue that THIS is pedantry. There was no dispute about Penn being the champ (or Fedor). I'm actually saying, dispense with pedantry and let's admit what we all know to be true. I don't think you really think that Sylvia had a better claim to the HW belt than Fedor did, right?



Meh. I disagree. I picked guys who were around top 5 in their divisions at their best, just as Mir was. I think that they are actually both much better fighters relative to their divisions than he is.



Magny has more wins, fewer losses, more good wins, better average competition. Putting aside irrelevant belts, what's the argument for Mir being better? Qualitative assessment? I disagree.

The issue isn't specific to any individual. I just believe in ranking guys by their records (adjusted for opponent quality) and how they fight. I don't put much emphasis on what I regard as meaningless promotional belts.

Mir beat Nog twice. The first time he was still pretty damn good. That's better than any win Magny ever had by far. Better than any win Justin ever had either. Beating Tim Sylvia is also a better win than either of those guys has ever had. Hell, beating a green Brock is abetter win than either of those guys have ever had. We disagree strongly here.

Also, back to the pedantry, you absolutely were. No one says so and so was a former promotional belt holder. The common parlance is to call them an ex-champ. Correcting it was pedantic, and pretty irritating, frankly. We both knew what I was talking about, and you introduced uncommon terminology to bolster your position. It was weak, and pedantic.

Is Khabib the real LW champ right now, or just a promotional belt holder?

 

[Limbo Pete]

The truth is that rankings are meaningless in MMA and the belt is the only possible peak above a deceptively flat valley (regardless of who holds it or how they got it).