War on men - Feminism's lies and brainwashing

[Deleted member 457759]

So why is there a gap when you compare men and women in the same professions?

You have to take into account how many hours they work, how much sick leave they take, how long they have been working for the same company, how much overtime they work among a few others.

That's a start.

 

[Ayin]

I would have to assume the CEO difference is just down to age and generation. If women have only really been considered for those positions for one or two 'generations' of business, many likely don't have the same web of connections (especially including mentors) that men do (even a man from the same family, like an older brother).

I'd expect this to significantly even out with time, but only if women actively pursue (and are encouraged to pursue) positions which are likely more difficult for them to attain (for the above reasons). For this reason, it seems (to me) still necessary for women (especially experienced business women) to promote the idea of women in business, encourage pursuing those careers, ect.


As to the XXcents/dollar, that's going to be debated until the end of time. From completely personal, anecdotal experience, my wife started off as an intern in the company she just finished working for. In that time she was hired and worked her way up over two years, but the person in charge of her department, while a nice guy, just seemed to never get over seeing her as 'that intern girl' (and it's the girl part that sticks, as he doesn't have the same attitude with other former interns, even younger ones). She recently decided (on advice of someone leaving the company) to look for a position elsewhere, and was blown away to discover that other companies were willing to bring her in to a higher position for a significant raise. Now she's bothered she didn't leave to pursue this earlier, as she is now not as far along as some of her fellows of the same age and education (and thus makes less cents on the dollar to them, despite doing the exact same job).

It should be stressed that her previous company was in no way backwards/old time boys club (it's founder is gay, they have many women in high positions), but just that one little attitude held by one person in the company above her has likely contributed to her falling into the 'does the same, makes less' group (though I highly doubt she'll stay there for long).

I feel I should also point out that she managed to get that job through a mentor who was a business woman. Connections are again incredibly important in the professional world.

 

[7437]

lol, well played.

Its an attitude that fits every single identity issue.

 

[ben236]

I did read your post and it doesn't answer the question. I asked about men and women in the SAME profession, not a general field.

I obviously need to make things simple for you. Why would male family court judges make more then female family court judges?

As I mentioned before, when studies use the term "same profession," it tends to be broad in scope and includes multiple specialties within the same profession. Using my previous example, a surgeon and a pediatrician would be considered the "same profession" (ie. they're both doctors). But obviously, one is going to be paid more than the other.

And of course, there are other factors such as hours put in, experience etc. which tends to favor men.

 

[Ayin]

It is possible to socially and environmentally stimulate societies into almost anything, even if it goes against their very nature.

If it was so desired, you could theoretically create a society where most of the armed forces were women, and most of the men wore dresses.

They probably wouldn't be very happy or fulfilled though.

You of course have no way of knowing that. And societies of all different types of clothing, from men wearing skirts ('it's a kilt!') to everyone wearing the same thing/nothing have seemed to do just fine (as far as their feelings towards their fashion choices go).

Regardless, this is an theoretical that points out nothing and goes nowhere. If you use 'anything is possible' as a counterpoint to every argument, I have to think you don't actually have much of a point to start with.

 

[MMAgirlie]

I did read your post and it doesn't answer the question. I asked about men and women in the SAME profession, not a general field.

I obviously need to make things simple for you. Why would male family court judges make more then female family court judges?

Could you show us your sources which indicate that women working the exact same job with the same education, experience, benefits, same hours worked, and same amount of time taken off, earn less than men in exactly the same position? Serious question. As some of you might guess from the original post, I read a *lot* of information thrown out on this subject, and I've yet to see a study that makes this claim - just ones that make some other claim and then people who repeat it as if it made the claim you're making.

 

[Deleted member 457759]

Can somebody name one company today that pays women less for equal work, equal time, and equal experience? This should be easy...

In western culture obviously.

 

[7437]

I did read your post and it doesn't answer the question. I asked about men and women in the SAME profession, not a general field.

I obviously need to make things simple for you. Why would male family court judges make more then female family court judges?

They dont. There are less women in higher positions, which is why they are generally paid less. If you have an example of a female judge being paid less than a male, please provide.

 

[kpt018]

You have to take into account how many hours they work, how much sick leave they take, how long they have been working for the same company, how much overtime they work among a few others.

That's a start.

Well, I think most companies have the same benefit plans for men and women with the exception of child birth. Women typically don't get more vacation or sick time.

So if a woman has 3 kids and misses what, 3 months for each? That's 9 months out of a 35 year career. Let's say there's additional time missed when they're young. Women would need to miss about 12 years over their carer vs men to explain that difference! Of course, missing out on opportunities to get promoted to more demanding jobs can be another possible explanation.

Overtime is one explanation. But does that make up a 35% difference? And what about professions that are not hourly that experience the same wage gaps?

I tend to think there are social causes at play that stem from how women and men are raised, what the respective expectations of each are and how men actually view women.

I think there are lots of factors, but women do sometimes have a gripe. I personally know many men who simply think women make bad leaders. Accounting is notorious for having a lack of female leaders, for example, despite having a pretty even split at the lower level positions.

 

[Joe]

guys have it so hard today, especially white men.

 

[themainman]

Lets get some cliffs on that manifesto

 

[36thDisciple]

guys have it so hard today, especially white men.

Totes.

 

[Ayin]

I find it very disturbing that your big worry about the word Rape being misused is with sherdoggers using it in a colloquial sense and not feminist groups having it reclassified as two people having sex while intoxicated.

It's disturbing that both sides seem to be becoming more extreme, when on one hand you have people 'reclassifying' it as any sex while intoxicated, and on the other, reclassifying it as some colloquial euphemism for something that has little to nothing to do with the original term. Seems both are doing it wrong.

 

[kpt018]

They dont. There are less women in higher positions, which is why they are generally paid less. If you have an example of a female judge being paid less than a male, please provide.

That was just a specific example to help Ben, who cannot seem to understand points.

I am referring to studies that control for profession, experience and education and still show a gap in wages between men and women. I will see if I can dig up what I read a few years ago or if there's something more current.

 

[IDL]

Strange thread. I can be as chauvinistic as any other guy, but even I think there's issues with claiming a war on men and dismissing sexism as still a very real problem today...especially when that argument comes from a woman. Just head-scratching stuff I guess.

People can question the aims and results of the feminist movement and also be against sexism.

To think those are contradictory serves to pressure people into following something without reasoning.

 

[7437]

That was just a specific example to help Ben, who cannot seem to understand points.

I am referring to studies that control for profession, experience and education and still show a gap in wages between men and women. I will see if I can dig up what I read a few years ago or if there's something more current.

Ok. I am under the same impression that most people are in this thread, that women are paid less in general, not in specific instances. I would be interested in being proved wrong though.

 

[Deleted member 457759]

Well, I think most companies have the same benefit plans for men and women with the exception of child birth. Women typically don't get more vacation or sick time.

Women take more sick leave. It's easy to find the stats. And for what it's worth I think most people who have been in the work force for a while will confirm this anecdotally.

So if a woman has 3 kids and misses what, 3 months for each? That's 9 months out of a 35 year career. Let's say there's additional time missed when they're young. Women would need to miss about 12 years over their carer vs men to explain that difference! Of course, missing out on opportunities to get promoted to more demanding jobs can be another possible explanation.

Overtime is one explanation. But does that make up a 35% difference? And what about professions that are not hourly that experience the same wage gaps?

I tend to think there are social causes at play that stem from how women and men are raised, what the respective expectations of each are and how men actually view women.

I think there are lots of factors, but women do sometimes have a gripe. I personally know many men who simply think women make bad leaders. Accounting is notorious for having a lack of female leaders, for example, despite having a pretty even split at the lower level positions.

Of course there are situations where women are discriminated, but men deal with discrimination also. If Jon the Boss likes Steve more than Mike Steve gets promoted blah blah blah.

Women are less likely to work outdoors, overtime, dangerous jobs, for the same company for a prolonged period of time accumulating raised or commit to a lifetime with one company. They are more likely to work part time, take sick leave, and switch employers.

CEO's often work for the same company for decades.

 

[MMAgirlie]

guys have it so hard today, especially white men.

You know the brainwashing and finding it problematic to even consider anything but the party line I was talking about? This rank dismissal of something that doesn't fit the popular narrative is a bogeyman of precisely this type of brainwashing.

There is significant proof out there that men are discriminated against in issues of rape claims, alimony, divorce court, are offered fewer scholarships/grants than women, have far less medical funding for uniquely male conditions than women, have far fewer shelters/support system in place in the case of disaster, comprise about 95% of workplace deaths (not a made up statistic - look it up), are the only ones forced to register for the draft, have tougher standards for getting into military/firefighting/police, have far fewer support programs helping them to get into careers than women, etc etc etc.

But, we are at a point where the narrative says, if women do have legitimate problems and face real discrimination, then we CAN NOT ADMIT that men also have legitimate problems - hence, knee jerk reactions with no thought or analysis of the evidence available, just knee-jerk parroting of the party line of "oh, white men have it better in everything."

 

[kpt018]

Could you show us your sources which indicate that women working the exact same job with the same education, experience, benefits, same hours worked, and same amount of time taken off, earn less than men in exactly the same position? Serious question. As some of you might guess from the original post, I read a *lot* of information thrown out on this subject, and I've yet to see a study that makes this claim - just ones that make some other claim and then people who repeat it as if it made the claim you're making.

I'll see if I can dig it up. I read it a few years ago.

Anyway, I think in terms of the wage gap, it is more social. For example, women are raised to be nurturers, supports, etc. and men are raised to be leaders, problem solvers, etc.. Of course the latter leads to choosing careers in business, STEM, etc. and the former careers as teachers, nurses, etc.. And that explains the gap.

But again, if you don't think there are men, and men in power, that do not view women as leaders and will literally promote a lessor qualified man instead, you're living under a rock.

When I have more time I'll look at the links in the OP. The rape claim you seem to imply is overstated is an eye opener.

 

[Ayin]

People can question the aims and results of the feminist movement and also be against sexism.

I'd argue you could more correctly argue against SOME in the feminist movement, some parts of the feminist movement, ect. A lot of the blowback that I at least personally see is this dismissal of feminism entirely. When 16 year old girls don't want to learn about the feminism or the history of the world of their mothers and grandmothers because social pressure says that's not 'cool', I'm not surprised many modern feminists become more and more extreme.

If there is heavy social pressure not to be a 'feminist' and to make that a bad word, and I was a woman, I'd be a little concerned as well.