views on the 50/50 guard

[Uchi Mata]

So does a punch to the face, but that doesn't really make it a conventional guard.

It seems silly, but I think names are important because names identify the problem you have and how you need to solve it. One of the reason I think 50/50 gives so many people so many problems is because the rules of guard play do not apply to the position. I love 50/50 and I love the turtle position, but I don't call them guards because the fundamentals are different. Almost backwards.

50/50 is a leg entanglement. Not a guard. As far as leg entanglements go it's a pretty weak one, but whatevs. Improving position in BJJ tournaments only counts against a guard. Because of that, BJJ players feel the need to call anything they want to attack with a guard to give it some type of extra value internally or externally.

Names are important.

I think of a guard primarily as a position where you're keeping the other guy from hurting or submitting you. I think 50/50 qualifies, though of course you do have the possibility of leg locks (a possibility in all open guards). It's not a position I would ever go to willingly, but it occurs and as such you need to know how to deal with it. I think it's fine under open rule sets, and it's terribly boring under IBJJF but that's a function of the rules, not the position itself. I think it would be fine in a self defense situation, I can't imagine a much better way of defending yourself than heel hooking some while using your legs to keep them out of punching range. Honestly, I should really learn more about it, I've practiced basically nothing from 50/50 other than the low percentage armbar, but I've had it come up in my matches.

 

[Armwrap]

Well they do use the term 50/50 guard in IBJJF rulebook so it cannot be that wrong. Also from rulebook: "Guard is defined by the use of one or more legs to block the opponent from reaching side-control or north-south position over the athlete on bottom." I dont understand your comment about improving position. Leg drag, side control, 3 points. But yeah, sweep points are of course different.

Conceptually IDK...I kind of understand your point. For example, X-guard is not really a guard but should be considered more like a half-way sweeping position. If you see X as a guard you are doing it wrong. It is still dumb to call it just x.

Turtle is not a guard for me, because it generally is a dominant position for the top guy and you will take a lot of damage in fighting situation. I know some ex-wrestlers that pull side control and bridge you from there. It is not a dominant position in that case for me but it does not make it a guard. Traditionally guard is, I guess, guard from strikes.

Also the intention and skill level counts, if I smash a first day whitebelt and he ends up upside down I wouldnt say that he had me on his tornado guard. It is a guard if my skill level justifies me actively putting you into my guard or I have to retreat into some kind of guard. If two wbs mistakenly tangle their legs, it is leg entanglement. If I put a wb in 50/50 and he has no idea what I am going to do, he cannot escape or advance position, cannot strike me and I can methodically work my way into submission or better position, yeah, it is a guard for me.

Anyways I would be interested in hearing why the principles are so different for you for 50/50? Get dominant grips, break the structure/posture, get a good angle...

I am not sure if this post makes any sense.

 

[Zankou]

Is a good position. Kills your opponent's ability to land heavy strikes. If you are a good leglocker, you have nasty offense from there.

It's actually better for strike defense than most leglock positions and guards, and it allows you to control even a real beast of an opponent relatively easily.

Only real reason to hate on it comes from the IBJJF ruleset, where the lack of strikes and heelhooks makes it effectively a dead-end.

But the reality is that a major part of grappling consists of locking down your opponent and controlling them. 50/50 is great for that.

 

[ChainFlow]

Is the inside leg triangle a "guard" too? What about the leg knot?

Both of them stop an opponent from getting side or mount, and allow you to attack with submissions while being safe from them yourself. You can also use them to come up into a top position should you choose to.

 

[Armwrap]

Because a position is not aesthetically very pleasing and stalls matches it does not make it ineffective. Controlling and stalling can be, depending on the situation, good BJJ. Helio was the grandmaster of stalling.

Naming is important also because labeling 50/50 as "buttflopping lesbian/gay scissor position" kind of suggests that the position is not effective or "real" BJJ. I disagree on this.

Same people that search "pure" jiu-jitsu usually rant on Miyao brothers and think that their blue belt ass would not get destroyed in a competitive grappling match against "Meows" if they were not allowed to use this "fake" BJJ such as berimbolos and 50/50.

 

[Calibur]

Well they do use the term 50/50 guard in IBJJF rulebook so it cannot be that wrong.

The hell it can't.

I dont understand your comment about improving position. Leg drag, side control, 3 points. But yeah, sweep points are of course different.

If I my opponent has full mount, or side control or back control if I roll over into his guard I get nothing. If I am in bottom turtle and I roll him into side control I get nothing. If I have guard and I roll him into guard I get something. Thats because in BJJ tournaments position isnt as important as how you get it. You can not score points from changing positions unless a guard is involved so 50/50 needs to be CALLED a guard even if its too people simutaneously sitting down with no intention of using the move to keep the opponent from side control.

Turtle is not a guard for me, because it generally is a dominant position for the top guy and you will take a lot of damage in fighting situation.

Sports BJJ players only care about real fighting situations when trying to justify how using the turtle to take sidecontrol doesn't deserve points.

If two wbs mistakenly tangle their legs, it is leg entanglement. If I put a wb in 50/50 and he has no idea what I am going to do, he cannot escape or advance position, cannot strike me and I can methodically work my way into submission or better position, yeah, it is a guard for me.

It doesn't seem like you understand what I mean when I say leg entanglement. Crash course: There is upper body control, and lower body control. Upper body control = guard (sort of but not really) Lower body control= leg entanglements. Their are several types of leg entanglements. Inside laces(moves that constitute knee reaping) outside leg laces(what everyone has been calling 50/50 guard) a bunch of stuff inbetween. This is really imporant for nogi because their is no collar or sleeves to maintain lower body control. You need leg entanglements to maintain position which is why traditionally bjj coaches would allow more leg locks in nogi. They are essential.

A leg entanglement isn't just two scrubs wrapping their legs around each other. It is a very specific positional hierachy that the bjj continues to ignore. I genuinely feel bad for anyone who decides to wait until they're a brown belt to unwrap practically the other half of grappling.

Anyways I would be interested in hearing why the principles are so different for you for 50/50? Get dominant grips, break the structure/posture, get a good angle...

Intuitive guard passing actions that apply to every other guard, like pressuring and hip switching will get your knee jakked with the 50/50. How can two people be in guard at the same time?

I am not sure if this post makes any sense.

Made sense enough.

 

[Armwrap]

I completely agree with the leg entanglement part being ignored in BJJ. But IMO outside leg lace gives you different kind of control than other leg laces. From a control point of view it feels more like guard to me. It is easier to force or "pull" than say, sambo leg knot or truck position. Spladle, although it is a beautiful and very dominant entanglement, is not a guard.

So your argument basically is that 50/50 should not be called a guard because BJJ practitioners, consequently, misunderstand the position. However, your examples of pressuring/hip switching rarely occur. What are the mistakes that people make based on this mislabelling?

My opinion is totally contrary: 50/50 should be considered as a legit guard and most of the mistakes come from people thinking it is just a neutral leg entanglement or dismissing it as a dumb stalling position.

Maybe the semantics of BJJ feel stupid, but it helped me a lot when I realized (Matrix style) that butterfly guard, especially in no-gi, does not exist. It should be called wrestling from your butt. You cant work or control same way from bf as you can from closed or spider. I did it wrong for many years.

 

[Uchi Mata]

How can two people be in guard at the same time?

It's actually pretty common these days, as I'm sure you know. If either person passes from the 50/50, they're going to get 3 points. The fact that it's a very equal position doesn't mean it isn't a guard. Basically, they're both preventing the other person from coming on top without being on top themselves. That seems to be more or less the IBJJF criteria for a guard anyway (which would explain why turtle is not a guard, since one person is on top and past the legs, though arguably hasn't established strong top position).

 

[randomg1t]

It's bullshit.

why? because helio didn't do it? or because you think it wouldn't work on the street?

 

[Balto]

It's a leg entanglement and a guard simultaneously. Leg entanglements are a subset of the guard group.

All the leg entanglements count as guards for scoring. If you fall back for the IBJJF legal straight ankle lock entanglement, that functions as a guard too. The guy won't get points for passing until he clears it and moves to side control. When he does, it's three points.

The guard definition is really broad. It's really any time you use your legs to entangle or control the distance. A lot of guards work on completely different principles, but they are still guards by the technical definition.

 

[lechien]

I like it and I teach it.

I don't see why the big drama about it.

It usually the guys that do not know how to use it that complain as usual.

 

[BJJArsenal]

It usually the guys that do not know how to use it that complain as usual.

That's the main issue.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Great position for heel hooks. A bitch to pass.

 

[Higher Learning]

just another position... guys have it pretty figured out these days so it really is just another part of the game to learn

 

[DVD review guy]

I love it. I have visited lots of schools over the last three years. I'm surprised by how many schools don't teach it. At least review the escapes?

I don't use the 50/50 to attack legs. I use it for armbars, elbow crush, kimura's, wrist locks and back takes.

 

[Armwrap]

All I can say that if Helio knew any 50/50 he would have stalled the shit out of his opponents.

 

[Shemhazai]

I'm not too crazy about it since it's a completely reciprocal position - unless you use some kind of modified version. When in a true 50/50, both players are able to control the other player's leg above the knee. My personal philosophy is that I should always strive for more positional control over my opponent than he has of me.

That being said, I think the position favors the bottom guy and has strategic value when having to fight tooth and nail to avoid being passed. In double guard pull situations, however, where no top/bottom roles have yet been established, I think it's a poor choice of strategy in terms of offense, unless you happen to know that you are much more skilled in that position than your opponent. (Again, my personal philosophy is to utilize positions that allow me to beat opponents of greater skill, given that I'm able to get to them.)

 

[Armwrap]

"50/50 is a reciprocal position" is same as saying that "guard is always the weaker position". Maybe the problem is in the name...because it is not always 50/50!

I have tapped a lot of grapplers that were overally much better than me by using positions that they were unfamiliar with. Against a strong judo bb you bet I am pulling 50/50 and enjoying the confused/frustrated look that he has trying to figure out the entanglement.

 

[Shemhazai]

Well, no, it's not always 50/50, because one person will usually have a head-start, or, like I said, a different starting point (top or bottom, ahead or behind on points), and of course, there are little details like angle/rotation, grips etc.

To make an analogy: A standing over/under clinch is not necessarily 50/50 either, as any Greco guy will tell you, as it's a constant battle of shoulder and hip position, but that doesn't make the over/under clinch a favorable position versus someone equally or more skilled (in that position), you just have to master it because it arises frequently when two skilled grapplers try to deny each other more dominant forms of control like double underhooks, arm drags and 2 on 1s. (In addition to often having to start from there.)

What I'm trying to say is that I think reciprocal positions are important to master, because they will arise often in close matches, but I wouldn't willingly enter such positions over other, safer/more dominant ones. Not to say that a specialist can't still have immense success doing so.

 

[LugWrenchBjj]

Meow. /thread