Vendetta: State Of Colorado Goes After Cake Maker Jack Phillips Again

[Pelosi2020]

People should be allowed to decline service such as this on any ground. Their business their rules.

^^^THIS^^^

I’ve never understood any American that opposes this. Pro-freedom on everything else UNTIL you open a business then you no longer have freedom. If you want to keep your freedoms then don’t open a business, they say. How about the freedom to do business with whoever you want and the freedom to not do business with whoever you don’t want?

If I am selling my car I have the freedom to choose who I sell it to for any reason, or to not sell it to for any reason. Why is this freedom stripped from a person the moment they call it a business? How is the freedom of association not a fundamental right?

Ugly isn’t given any special privileges. These cake makers should just say, I’m not going to sell you a double dicked gay transformer cake because you are too fukkin ugly. No protection for ugly, or stinky breath, or being annoying. You can kick them out of your business all day long with no repercussions other than lost sales.

There is nothing more un-American than slaved labor and the stripping of freedom.

 

[ocfightfan]

Except that your passage didn't bear on transgenderism. You see, it wasn't a thing at the time the Bible was written, and the Bible hasn't turned out all that swell at predicting future technologies.

It wasn't even right about basic universal scientific truths or laws.

If it requires technology to achieve then isn't this really just a lifestyle choice and not a civil right? The reason that discrimination on the basis of race is not allowed is that it is an inborn characteristic that cannot be changed. Punishing people for something they have no control over is the wrong being stopped.

And if you think that discrimination based on sexual orientation is wrong then how do you feel about people that are attracted to animals and kids? If you were a baker and the local pedo-sexuals wanted a cake celebrating adult men fucking young boys would you do that kind of business or would you be a bigot who discriminates?

 

[ultramanhyata]

So far I know only of openly Christian bakeries being harassed. Repeatedly. I'm sure there's million others who would make any cake these people wanted. But they don't want the cake.

But do you understand that a business's refusal to serve a clientele based on their Christian beliefs is deemed just as intolerable under the law as refusal to serve homosexuals? There is no double standard here. There is no basis for a special, specifically Christian aggrievement.

 

[Teppodama]

I accept your concession. Have a nice evening.

There was nothing to concede. We simply don't agree and ominous warnings about how history views it doesnt change that. So many of these discussions here are nothing more than near endless rounds of circular arguments that ultimately do nothing about changing opinions. They're just argumentative statements beaten into the ground hoping to get the last word.

 

[Fawlty]

That may very well be how it's interpreted but that's not how I personally see the issue. I see it no different than the 1st issue regardless of the degree of required customization. I still hold that they would have been perfectly fine and likely gotten their cake if they hadn't stated what it was for or represented. Now, if he refused to sell them an already produced generic cake that was to be used for such a purpose then I would completely side with them. However, this in fact a custom order and given the colors chosen, not one he would likely normally make as I doubt there is much general call for such unless you stated it was to celebrate the birth of twins one male one female. That's not the case here and once again touches on his religious beliefs as he holds them. If nothing else, at least he's being consistent on his stance in that regard.

You see nothing wrong with creating the cake. You wouldn't though because you see nothing wrong with either gay marriage or trans issues. He apparently does based upon his religious beliefs. I would expect refusal as well if I went to an Islamic baker and asked for a bacon and chocolate cake. Well, I would expect it if they held their own religious beliefs as strongly as he apparently holds his own.

There's clearly nothing wrong with creating the cake. It's a pink cake with blue frosting for a birthday. The objection arrives when we discover the sexual orientation of the customers. If he would make a similar cake for any customer, but not a customer celebrating a gender transition, he is violating the law. Your attempted justification here is uninteresting.

 

[bad mojo]

But do you understand that a business's refusal to serve a clientele based on their Christian beliefs is deemed just as intolerable under the law as refusal to serve homosexuals? There is no double standard here. There is no basis for a special, specifically Christian aggrievement.

I understand that these people are deliberately trying to ruin somebody's business just because he's not going to accept values that are contrary to his understanding of life. He's not threatening them in any way. They can get their cake from million other places. That tells me all I need to know.

 

[irish_thug]

Why would you seek out this Baker given the history? Unless it was for manufactured outrage.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

How does Christian belief bear on transgender issues?

It seems to me there are some here pursuing a precedent where "religious belief" becomes a catch-all to avoid established civil law when an individual doesn't care for it. What's next? Serving a black couple violates someone's "religious beliefs"? I'm sure some asshole will try to found a religion that forwards that theology.

This is extremely dicey.

Nah,this seems like the baker chose his battle pretty well to me.

On one hand, contra to your worry that something is being made up here, Christian belief on gender is explicit and well established. One need not agree with the gentleman's view, but he isn't making something up to avoid civil law. Also, civil law is not well established here.

On the other, the baker also was not refusing all services to anyone, he simply refused to make custom cakes for things which cut against his beliefs. There are plenty of examples of people refusing this exact service with no problems, including people refusing to bake pro-Trump cakes, and the Colorado Commission also seems to have allowed a different baker to refuse to bake a cake with bible verses against homosexuality on it.

Finally, the Supreme Court, in a 7-2 ruling, found that the Colorado Commission was being hostile to the man on the basis of his religion. This wasn't a narrow, partisan ruling.

 

[HomerThompson]

There was nothing to concede. We simply don't agree and ominous warnings about how history views it doesnt change that. So many of these discussions here are nothing more than near endless rounds of circular arguments that ultimately do nothing about changing opinions. They're just argumentative statements beaten into the ground hoping to get the last word.

What the baker is doing breaks Colorado law.

Hope that helps.

 

[BjPenn2017]

I bet those people did that specifically knowing who he was seeking out a lawsuit knowing the answer beforehand.

His beliefs are well known, they have been broadcast all over the past 2 years. You'd literally have to be living under a rock not too know. Leave the poor guy alone, this is the type of shit that drives mass murderers etc. Wouldn't blame the guy if that's what he came to at this point, I honestly wouldn't. One person can only be pushed so far before snapping.

 

[Fawlty]

Why would you seek out this Baker given the history? Unless it was for manufactured outrage.

Because he's serving the public, and while doing so is violating anti-discrimination laws. If he wants to close to the public, he can be as exclusive as he wants.

 

[Teppodama]

What the baker is doing breaks Colorado law.

Hope that helps.

The courts will ultimately decide that. Still doesnt change that I believe he has the right to his position. Its not mine by the way as I have no issue with either gay marriage or sexual transitioning in general.

However, I hold the ideal of religious freedom highly and consider it worth fighting for as much as any other right.

 

[irish_thug]

Because he's serving the public, and while doing so is violating anti-discrimination laws. If he wants to close to the public, he can be as exclusive as he wants.

Didn't he already try not being open to the public before?

 

[Ripskater]

But do you understand that a business's refusal to serve a clientele based on their Christian beliefs is deemed just as intolerable under the law as refusal to serve homosexuals? There is no double standard here. There is no basis for a special, specifically Christian aggrievement.

The baker doesn't refuse to serve homosexuals and transgenders.

He just doesn't make cakes for gay weddings or cakes for gender transitions. He wouldn't even make those type of cakes for a hetero person.

 

[Fawlty]

Didn't he already try not being open to the public before?

I don't know, but he was charged in both cases while being open to the public.

 

[Ripskater]

There's clearly nothing wrong with creating the cake. It's a pink cake with blue frosting for a birthday. The objection arrives when we discover the sexual orientation of the customers. If he would make a similar cake for any customer, but not a customer celebrating a gender transition, he is violating the law. Your attempted justification here is uninteresting.

The orientation of the person has nothing to do with it.

The cake was declined because of what the cake was for. (Gay weddings/gender transitions)

He wouldn't even make these cakes and sell them to a hetero person who was buying them for a gay person.

 

[Ripskater]

Why would you seek out this Baker given the history? Unless it was for manufactured outrage.

Gay activists want this man destroyed financially. And would be happy if he went to prison for this.

This is also about social justice. Jack Phillips is a Christian white male with privilege. The victims (gays/transgenders) need to be elevated, and he needs to be punished.

 

[Islam Imamate]

People should be allowed to decline service such as this on any ground. Their business their rules, and if the public find the operation of the business reprehensible then they can boycott it.

You can argue they should be able to do this or that but that hasn't been the case for over fifty years. Most of us are at peace with the protections afforded the nationally protected classes.

 

[Fugazy]

Gay activists love comparing their situation to black Americans.

Yet they are nothing alike...

 

[Ripskater]

Most of us are at peace with the protections afforded the nationally protected classes.

I'd bet that there's becoming less peace about the LGBTQ being a protected class. I think it's started to shift back the other way. Especially if the transgenders continue to go after Jack Phillips.