Vegetarian Questions

Hey thanks again guys. Im really interested in this http://www.ultimatelife.com/CatalogMeal.htm that Danzig mentions. Anyone got any expert opinions? Noise?
Zen - I've used the Ultimate Meal, yes. I'm definitely not a fan of their website, but the product is pretty damn good. I had a lot of success with it when I was doing my last cycle of serious weight training.

Right now, I'm off of it - mainly eating completely unprocessed foods, and training Muay Thai very hard. I was supposed to fight this Saturday but the only 235lb guy on the list had to cancel, so I'm without an opponent. So it's just the seminar and spectator at the smoker for me this weekend.

Chuck - thanks, I think. Ha!

Styles - As I've mentioned, it's my humble opinion based on experience. My wife's father was on a very low carb, high protein diet and went in about 6 months back and had severe high blood pressure, and high cholesterol. They first put him on Crestor, but that gave him weird pains and made him feel light headed. For shits and giggles, my wife and I told him to try cutting out meat and dairy. He did that for about a month or so, and his levels are quite normal, almost to where they should be "according to the doctor" now.

This has been the case for a few people in my family and some of my friends.

The fact that you had a better blood profile after not being vegetarian is quite ironic, but impressive. What was your diet like when you were vegetarian? Were you just mainly eating cheeses, dairy, fruits and veggies?
 
Zen - I've used the Ultimate Meal, yes. I'm definitely not a fan of their website, but the product is pretty damn good. I had a lot of success with it when I was doing my last cycle of serious weight training.

Right now, I'm off of it - mainly eating completely unprocessed foods, and training Muay Thai very hard. I was supposed to fight this Saturday but the only 235lb guy on the list had to cancel, so I'm without an opponent. So it's just the seminar and spectator at the smoker for me this weekend.

Chuck - thanks, I think. Ha!

Styles - As I've mentioned, it's my humble opinion based on experience. My wife's father was on a very low carb, high protein diet and went in about 6 months back and had severe high blood pressure, and high cholesterol. They first put him on Crestor, but that gave him weird pains and made him feel light headed. For shits and giggles, my wife and I told him to try cutting out meat and dairy. He did that for about a month or so, and his levels are quite normal, almost to where they should be "according to the doctor" now.

This has been the case for a few people in my family and some of my friends.

The fact that you had a better blood profile after not being vegetarian is quite ironic, but impressive. What was your diet like when you were vegetarian? Were you just mainly eating cheeses, dairy, fruits and veggies?

When I was a vegetarian, I'm pretty sure all the refined carbs caused my cholesterol to be high (cereals, whites breads, tortillas, white pastas). I would say I ate a moderate amount of dairys. And a slightly higher than average consumption of fruits and veggies which is still way below that what should be consumed.

At the time I got my blood work done the 2nd time, my diet was semi-ok with veggies. I would eat a strong serving of veggies at 3 meals out of my 6. This is about 2-3x the amount I was eating while a vegetarian (how ironic :icon_chee). The most simple carbohydrate I ate was 100% whole wheat bread. I also upped my dairy a bit, but seemed to up in the same proportion of the increased amount of foods I was eating.

I far as I can tell, cholesterol levels are strongly dependent on fat storage. Even though I had an extremely low bf when I was a vegetarian, I think the refined carbs I was eating caused me to temporary store fat before burning it, and that fat storage process required ldl's to be produced which would remain after the fat was burned. I'm no expert though, I'm shooting from the hip with that theory.
 
When I was a vegetarian, I'm pretty sure all the refined carbs caused my cholesterol to be high (cereals, whites breads, tortillas, white pastas). I would say I ate a moderate amount of dairys. And a slightly higher than average consumption of fruits and veggies which is still way below that what should be consumed.

At the time I got my blood work done the 2nd time, my diet was semi-ok with veggies. I would eat a strong serving of veggies at 3 meals out of my 6. This is about 2-3x the amount I was eating while a vegetarian (how ironic :icon_chee). The most simple carbohydrate I ate was 100% whole wheat bread. I also upped my dairy a bit, but seemed to up in the same proportion of the increased amount of foods I was eating.

I far as I can tell, cholesterol levels are strongly dependent on fat storage. Even though I had an extremely low bf when I was a vegetarian, I think the refined carbs I was eating caused me to temporary store fat before burning it, and that fat storage process required ldl's to be produced which would remain after the fat was burned. I'm no expert though, I'm shooting from the hip with that theory.
Like you, I'm no expert either - I just thought it sounded strange. Everyone that I know that has/had high cholesterol, and cut meat/dairy out reduced it drastically. My current cholesterol score is 154. That's of course total cholesterol. That was taken about 6 months or so ago.
 
Like you, I'm no expert either - I just thought it sounded strange. Everyone that I know that has/had high cholesterol, and cut meat/dairy out reduced it drastically. My current cholesterol score is 154. That's of course total cholesterol. That was taken about 6 months or so ago.

how do the hdl and ldl levels break down?
 
how do the hdl and ldl levels break down?
When I get off of work today, I'll get out the paper work and let you know. I can't remember that off the top of my head. I go home for lunch, so hopefully I'll remember to grab it then so you don't have to wait until 4PM EST.

EDIT: (8:23AM EST)
-----------------------
Styles - I just talked to my wife at home, and had her bring out my paperwork for my bloodwork.

I misspoke on total cholesterol, it was 157. So here are the stats she gave me:

HDL: 58
LDL: 74.8
Triglycerides: 121

Total Cholesterol: 157

Sorry about the wrong number.
 
Like you, I'm no expert either - I just thought it sounded strange. Everyone that I know that has/had high cholesterol, and cut meat/dairy out reduced it drastically. My current cholesterol score is 154. That's of course total cholesterol. That was taken about 6 months or so ago.

Couldn't their cholesterol of gone down from them generally being more mindful of their cholesterol? Usually when the doc is like, "Do x, xx, xxx, and xxxx" and they do all 4 things the doctor recommends, you can't safely correlate the change to one specific thing.

I have a feeling the average person's cholesterol woes are a result of the aforementioned (stylesbjj) and possibly a genetic or dietary fault that messes with the body's ability to track cholesterol levels. The average person produces something like 900-1000mg of cholesterol a day, which is supposed to go down automatically whenever high levels of cholesterol are consumed. It takes a lot of steak and milk to match that ~1g/day of cholesterol.
 
Couldn't their cholesterol of gone down from them generally being more mindful of their cholesterol? Usually when the doc is like, "Do x, xx, xxx, and xxxx" and they do all 4 things the doctor recommends, you can't safely correlate the change to one specific thing.

I have a feeling the average person's cholesterol woes are a result of the aforementioned (stylesbjj) and possibly a genetic or dietary fault that messes with the body's ability to track cholesterol levels. The average person produces something like 900-1000mg of cholesterol a day, which is supposed to go down automatically whenever high levels of cholesterol are consumed. It takes a lot of steak and milk to match that ~1g/day of cholesterol.
Josh,

I'm with you 100%. Genetics definitely play a role, and as you said our bodies make cholesterol. The rest however comes from food. Don't get me wrong, any positive change whether it's eating habit changes or exercise is going to help you. Shit, you can have fine total cholesterol, but have low HDL (Good) cholesterol because you're not active. As soon as you stop being sedentary, you'll start to raise it.

I wasn't saying that being vegan or vegetarian is the only way to lower it, or improve your cholesterol levels, was just saying - it's worked for a number of people I know. Of course, I'd also recommend exercise, etc. That being said, you can improve cholesterol with still not being vegetarian.
 
Couldn't their cholesterol of gone down from them generally being more mindful of their cholesterol? Usually when the doc is like, "Do x, xx, xxx, and xxxx" and they do all 4 things the doctor recommends, you can't safely correlate the change to one specific thing.

I have a feeling the average person's cholesterol woes are a result of the aforementioned (stylesbjj) and possibly a genetic or dietary fault that messes with the body's ability to track cholesterol levels. The average person produces something like 900-1000mg of cholesterol a day, which is supposed to go down automatically whenever high levels of cholesterol are consumed. It takes a lot of steak and milk to match that ~1g/day of cholesterol.

I feel genetics is a factor too. But keep in mind that heart disease was virtually non-existent until the 30's in America. And today there are countries where people eat way more saturated fats and cholesterol than we do in America, but have only a fraction of the heart disease. I have a feeling that even with bad genes, if you get plenty fiber from produce and eliminate all process/refined carbs and maybe whole grains as well, cholesterol won't be a problem. Maybe. . . . .
 
I feel genetics is a factor too. But keep in mind that heart disease was virtually non-existent until the 30's in America. And today there are countries where people eat way more saturated fats and cholesterol than we do in America, but have only a fraction of the heart disease. I have a feeling that even with bad genes, if you get plenty fiber from produce and eliminate all process/refined carbs and maybe whole grains as well, cholesterol won't be a problem. Maybe. . . . .

I agree, especially people living in sea ports hundreds of years ago. Seafood and notably shellfish has been a part of their relatively heart disease-free diets. Which as I'm sure you know is one of the most cholesterol dense foods there is.

I'm not saying it isn't diet that causes high cholesterol, I just don't think it is specifically dietary cholesterol that is the problem. Generally people with bad diets are more stagnant than people with good diets, so it is somewhat of a compound effect.
 
That was the dumbest post ever saying to eat 35-40 eggs every day. I allmost shit my pants laughing so hard. I'm a Vegan and i get about 200 grams of protein daily and if i wanted could easily double that if it was needed. I eat no Soy, No Eggs, No milk products nothing coming for animals and nothing processed
 
That was the dumbest post ever saying to eat 35-40 eggs every day. I allmost shit my pants laughing so hard. I'm a Vegan and i get about 200 grams of protein daily and if i wanted could easily double that if it was needed. I eat no Soy, No Eggs, No milk products nothing coming for animals and nothing processed

I am curious to know what you eat for protein and is it a complete form of protein?
 
That was the dumbest post ever saying to eat 35-40 eggs every day. I allmost shit my pants laughing so hard. I'm a Vegan and i get about 200 grams of protein daily and if i wanted could easily double that if it was needed. I eat no Soy, No Eggs, No milk products nothing coming for animals and nothing processed

That is quite a feat, which I believe most people aren't mentally capable of reaching. 200g/day of protein is hard enough while eating meat.. I'm assuming you don't mix and match proteins for a "complete" amino acid profile. Am I correct?
 
That was the dumbest post ever saying to eat 35-40 eggs every day. I allmost shit my pants laughing so hard. I'm a Vegan and i get about 200 grams of protein daily and if i wanted could easily double that if it was needed. I eat no Soy, No Eggs, No milk products nothing coming for animals and nothing processed



What do you eat then, man-shit and tree bark?
 
I'm guessing symphonyx547 doesn't get 200 grams of protein a day. Not without some serious work. I've been vegan 11 years, and I know it's hard to get that. Especially complete proteins. That'd be a lot of hemp seed, buckwheat beans & rice, and quinoa, ha!

That being said, it can be done, but very difficult. I get over 100 grams of protein a day, but of course that's planned too.
 
I'm guessing symphonyx547 doesn't get 200 grams of protein a day. Not without some serious work. I've been vegan 11 years, and I know it's hard to get that. Especially complete proteins. That'd be a lot of hemp seed, buckwheat beans & rice, and quinoa, ha!

That being said, it can be done, but very difficult. I get over 100 grams of protein a day, but of course that's planned too.

This might be a bit off topic, but I was thinking about it the other day while I watched TUF 6 reruns. Isn't it against "vegan rules" (not sure what to call it.. maybe veganism) to use anything that "hurt" an animal in the process of being made? I'm pretty sure UFC's gloves are made with animal skin.
 
I'm guessing symphonyx547 doesn't get 200 grams of protein a day. Not without some serious work. I've been vegan 11 years, and I know it's hard to get that. Especially complete proteins. That'd be a lot of hemp seed, buckwheat beans & rice, and quinoa, ha!

That being said, it can be done, but very difficult. I get over 100 grams of protein a day, but of course that's planned too.

Yeah, symphony says he could 'easily' double his protein, that would be 400 grams with no animal source. Im sorry that just sounds wrong.

Noise, your posts seem knowledgeable Id like to ask you your opinion on Silk soy milk vs cows milk for someone who's trying to increase strength and mass. Ive read the FAQs and numerous threads/articles on soy milk and heard everything from it'll give you 'bitch tits' to its ok in moderation.

I'm not a vegetarian but Ive been drinking it for 5 years and prefer it to milk but if drinking milk is significantly better at helping me to reach my goals (strength/mass) id probably make a change. Although I live on a Caribbean island and good quality milk is often not available.

I appreciate any info you may have as well as anyone else (I'll even listen to the militant pro-milk, anti-soy guys).

Im 34yo., 6' tall, 175lbs, i think Im below average bf% and always been what some would call a 'hardgainer'.
Ive lifted weights on and off while growing up but just recently started a legit 5x5 routine. My job involves moderate to intense physical activity.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance.
 
This might be a bit off topic, but I was thinking about it the other day while I watched TUF 6 reruns. Isn't it against "vegan rules" (not sure what to call it.. maybe veganism) to use anything that "hurt" an animal in the process of being made? I'm pretty sure UFC's gloves are made with animal skin.
Yeah, most vegans stay away from purchasing/using any animal products. Yes, UFC gloves are probably leather. I think most MMA gloves are. They do make non-leather ones of course. That being said (if you're referring to Mac Danzig) I'm not sure if he's using leather or non-leather ones.

Going even further on that, he's not out buying them I'm sure. If he has to wear them for a 15-25 minute fight to make a living, I'm sure he's probably okay with that. On top of that, having the exposure he does, I'm sure he feels like he's doing his part in helping the cause he believes in. Just my guess though. You'd have to ask him about how he feels. Once again, I'm sure he doesn't go out and buy leather products.
 
Yeah, symphony says he could 'easily' double his protein, that would be 400 grams with no animal source. Im sorry that just sounds wrong.

Noise, your posts seem knowledgeable Id like to ask you your opinion on Silk soy milk vs cows milk for someone who's trying to increase strength and mass. Ive read the FAQs and numerous threads/articles on soy milk and heard everything from it'll give you 'bitch tits' to its ok in moderation.

I'm not a vegetarian but Ive been drinking it for 5 years and prefer it to milk but if drinking milk is significantly better at helping me to reach my goals (strength/mass) id probably make a change. Although I live on a Caribbean island and good quality milk is often not available.

I appreciate any info you may have as well as anyone else (I'll even listen to the militant pro-milk, anti-soy guys).

Im 34yo., 6' tall, 175lbs, i think Im below average bf% and always been what some would call a 'hardgainer'.
Ive lifted weights on and off while growing up but just recently started a legit 5x5 routine. My job involves moderate to intense physical activity.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance.
No need to apologize for the long post. That being said, it sounds like you're in good shape man. I'm 6'4" and 231lbs currently. So you're in much better shape then me, and probably drink more soy milk than me.

Silk definitely has some of the best tasting soy milk. I just recently stopped using Silk because I found a cheaper replica of it at Trader Joes. It's a nice little store, you probably don't have one though. But obviously, soy milk does have complete protein, and yes - in basic food amounts you will not have any problems.

Do you have bitch tits? Ha! I'm guessing no. Have you had your blood checked since using soy milk? Your test levels, etc? I'm sure you're fine. I've been vegan for eleven years and been using soy milk for about 7 years. All my blood work/physicals, etc have been fine. In fact, as I've posted before - I just dropped off a specimen sample of my goods today. We'll find out if my guys are swimming and in good numbers within the next few days. This being because my wife is trying to get pregnant. So I'll let you know if my soy intake has effected me, ha!

Soy Milk definitely tastes better than cows milk in my opinion. If you're worried about the anti-soy crowed, I'd suggest go get some levels taken and be the judge of yourself. If you're using isolated soy protein powder - I wouldn't use too much of it. The occasional shake isn't going to kill you, but too much wouldn't be advisable. Shit, the same goes for too much whey protein as well.

Berardi (Sherdog's God, ha) wrote a good article about soy recently. It's finally making some people think twice about jumping to conclusions too fast. Check it out if you haven't already.

I know I just kind of rambled, but hopefully some of it helps. I'm off to eat dinner, so if I'm all over the place that may be why. Feel free to ask any questions you may have. Either in a thread or PM.

Good luck!
 
No need to apologize for the long post. That being said, it sounds like you're in good shape man. I'm 6'4" and 231lbs currently. So you're in much better shape then me, and probably drink more soy milk than me.

Silk definitely has some of the best tasting soy milk. I just recently stopped using Silk because I found a cheaper replica of it at Trader Joes. It's a nice little store, you probably don't have one though. But obviously, soy milk does have complete protein, and yes - in basic food amounts you will not have any problems.

Do you have bitch tits? Ha! I'm guessing no. Have you had your blood checked since using soy milk? Your test levels, etc? I'm sure you're fine. I've been vegan for eleven years and been using soy milk for about 7 years. All my blood work/physicals, etc have been fine. In fact, as I've posted before - I just dropped off a specimen sample of my goods today. We'll find out if my guys are swimming and in good numbers within the next few days. This being because my wife is trying to get pregnant. So I'll let you know if my soy intake has effected me, ha!

Soy Milk definitely tastes better than cows milk in my opinion. If you're worried about the anti-soy crowed, I'd suggest go get some levels taken and be the judge of yourself. If you're using isolated soy protein powder - I wouldn't use too much of it. The occasional shake isn't going to kill you, but too much wouldn't be advisable. Shit, the same goes for too much whey protein as well.

Berardi (Sherdog's God, ha) wrote a good article about soy recently. It's finally making some people think twice about jumping to conclusions too fast. Check it out if you haven't already.

I know I just kind of rambled, but hopefully some of it helps. I'm off to eat dinner, so if I'm all over the place that may be why. Feel free to ask any questions you may have. Either in a thread or PM.

Good luck!

Your response is much appreciated.

I've read the Berardi article where admits to being lactose intolerant and consuming 8 oz. soy milk daily. I guess moderation is key.

My main goal is gaining/building lean muscle mass and I tend to hear a lot of folks on the D&S and the S&P praising the powers of milk. I am just not down with cow's milk. I love cheese, and there is no substitute for cream when it comes to coffee, however drinking a glass full of milk is nauseating whereas Silk is refreshing and delicious.

I just started with whey protein shake (PWO) and Muscle Milk (before bed). I understand that these both contain cow's milk (dairy proteins?) but I do not care. The taste and consistency isnt like milks IMO. From what I've read and understand it seems foolish not to take advantage of these products to get the most out of my punishing work outs.

I'm curious as to the reason you say that whey protein is not advisable in my case? Am I missing something?

Good luck with your current baby making mission. Remember they say practice makes perfect.:D
 
I easily get around 200 gramps of complete protein that without added up the non completes. Raw hemp powder, Spirulina, Chorella is where i get most of it along with other foods. two Tbspoons of hemp have 15 grams of protein with about 20 amino acids. each shake i have 5 table spoons of hemp which is around 40 grams.
 
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