vegan muscle building??

[HULKAMANIA]

except for soy protein SUCKS NUTS!

 

[Madmick]

Oh God...

Quit being a god damned vegan that's how.

You're being a fucking ass, Hulk.

 

[HULKAMANIA]

Well, I didn't really set out to be a fucking ass. I'm sorry if I greviously offended anyone. I just wanted to express my opinion that lifting huge amounts of weight and fretting over a cruelty free diet are essentially mutually exclusive. If my response came out a bit too emphatically, it's probably because I'm surrounded by vegans, and they're beginning to take a toll on my mental well-being.

Again, I didn't intend to be a jerk. :icon_sad:

 

[Ian Coe]

A friend of mine thats 110kg and fights is vegan. He's not exactly muscular (quite tubby actually) and when I've gotten him to left he is pretty weak, but damn can that boy move and just keep going. Just powers on and on for 8 rounds on the pads.

Sorry, bit OT there

 

[SlappyMacGee]

Eat lots of Soy and even more TVP. Without a doubt you need to increase your protein intake and the best way a that a vegan can accomplish this is with Soy products and TVP. Don't over do the the soy. These products are good for vegans because they are foods that have a higher percentage of protein to carbs (something that vegans usually lack in their diet).

 

[Urban]

Spirulina is complete protein. You can consume upwards of 60 grams of the stuff with no ill side effects (except the taste of grass cuttings) because it's really just a food. It may prove to be a viable option for protein shakes for you without going the bitchtit inducing soy or prison food TVP routes. I think it's stupid to be a vegan honestly, but whatever floats your boat. I can understand limiting yourself to organic foods and such, but veganism is totally lost on me. We evolved eating dense, calorie rich foods to fuel our increasing brain capacities, how people can intelligently decide that we should eat just plants it beyond me.

 

[Urban]

Spirulina is complete protein. You can consume upwards of 60 grams of the stuff with no ill side effects (except the taste of grass cuttings) because it's really just a food. It may prove to be a viable option for protein shakes for you without going the bitchtit inducing soy or prison food TVP routes. I think it's stupid to be a vegan honestly, but whatever floats your boat. I can understand limiting yourself to organic foods and such, but veganism is totally lost on me. We evolved eating dense, calorie rich foods to fuel our increasing brain capacities, how people can intelligently decide that we should eat just plants it beyond me.

 

[morganfreeman]

TVP and soy are garbage. I don't know much about Spirulina, but I know a few vegans who take pea protein isolate in powder form. It's a pain in the ass, and usually leads to overconsumption of carbs, but mixing legumes can get you decent protein sources. I'm doing my best to be civil here, but urban is right. Organized hunting and the consumption of meat are probably the most significant factors in the cognitive evolution of our species. Do what you like, but don't delude yourself into thinking that what you are doing is comsuming a more "natural" diet.

PS I don't know if this applies to you, but to any vegan who might be reading this: covering yourself with Patchouli oil is no substiture for bathing. Your pheromones really aren't as appealling as you might believe.

That is all.

 

[SlappyMacGee]

PS I don't know if this applies to you, but to any vegan who might be reading this: covering yourself with Patchouli oil is no substiture for bathing. Your pheromones really aren't as appealling as you might believe.

Because all vegans wear patchouli, right? Keep your asshole infurences to yourself.

 

[SlappyMacGee]

Urban, you are too smart of a guy to post ignorance such as "bitchtit inducing soy". Soy is good for regulating hormone levels when eaten in MODERATION. If you eat POUNDS of soy you may suffer some negative estrogenic effects. Who really eats pounds of Soy products?

 

[tinker_190]

I would suggest making a list of all the vitamins that you get from your usual vegan meals, then determining what you are missing. You said you are only missing B-12, so supplement that. As for getting some size, probably some protein shake mix.

 

[ENTROPY]

Soy is poison, pure and simple!

For those of you here who claim that there are pro's and con's to the Soy debate in an effort to somehow validate the acceptance of Soy, the fact is that this methodology is intellectually dishonest and denies multiple verifiable facts.

FACT:
Soy protein has a degree of muscle building value in terms of being a highly bioavailable protein, etc, etc.

FACT:
Despite this fact, there is an abundance of research that consistently supports the multiple negative aspects that far outweigh the bioavailability of Soy.

The following have been CONSISTENTLY observed by researchers in Australia, Japan and the US:

* Decrease in total testosterone.

* Lowering of total sperm count.

* A direct causal decrease in male babies testicular growth and hormone development.

* Causes an observable decrease of intestinal development in babies.

* Has estrogen mimicking (genestein and daidzen) compounds in it. (If you'd like to debate this, bring it!)

The following empirical evidence speaks for itself. The largest male consumers of soy milk are those in South East Asia. There are obvious exceptions, however the vast majority of males living in South East Asia, are physically smaller, with less muscular builds than their European counterparts. Not surprisingly, they also exhibit less facial and body hair growth. As such, the implication is obvious!

1. Atanassova N (2000). Comparative Effects of Neonatal Exposure of Male Rats to Potent and Weak (Environmental) Estrogens on Spermatogenesis at Puberty and the Relationship to Adult Testis Size and Fertility: Evidence for Stimulatory Effects of Low Estrogen Levels. Endocrinology Vol. 141, No. 10 3898-3907

2. Chorazy PA (1995). Persistent hypothyroidism in an infant receiving a soy formula: case report and review of the literature. Pediatrics Jul: 96 (1 Pt 1): 148-50

3. Irvine CHG (1998). Phytoestrogens in soy-based infant foods: concentrations, daily intake, and possible biological effects. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med1998 Mar; 217 (3): 247-53)

4. Lohrke B (2001). Activation of skeletal muscle protein breakdown following consumption of soybean protein in pigs. Br J Nutr 2001 Apr; 85 (4): 447-57

5. Nagata C (2000). Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men. Nutr Cancer; 36 (1): 14-8

6. Newbold RR (2001). Uterine Adenocarcinoma in Mice Treated Neonatally with Genistein. Cancer Research 61, 4325-4328

7. Pollard M (2000). Prevention of spontaneous prostate-related cancer in Lobund-Wistar rats by soy protein isolate/isoflavone diet. Prostate 2000 Oct 1; 45 (2): 101-5

8. Strauss L (1998). Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract. Mol Cell Endocrinol Sep 25; 144 (1-2): 83-93

9. Weber KS (2001). Dietary soy-phytoestrogens decrease testosterone levels and prostate weight without altering LH, prostate 5alpha-reductase or testicular steroidogenic acute regulatory peptide levels in adult male Sprague-Dawley rats. J Endocrinol Sep; 170 (3): 591

 

[morganfreeman]

Because all vegans wear patchouli, right? Keep your asshole infurences to yourself.

I said I don't know if this applies to you, did I not? You need to relax. Maybe there are some vegan's who don't try to cover up their poor personal hygiene with a liberal application of patchouli oil, but I have yet to meet any of them.

 

[SlappyMacGee]

I might add that I am not a vegan, I know better.

 

[Cnyle33]

Thanks for all your help guys.

 

[Madmick]

Well, I didn't really set out to be a fucking ass. I'm sorry if I greviously offended anyone. I just wanted to express my opinion that lifting huge amounts of weight and fretting over a cruelty free diet are essentially mutually exclusive. If my response came out a bit too emphatically, it's probably because I'm surrounded by vegans, and they're beginning to take a toll on my mental well-being.

Again, I didn't intend to be a jerk. :icon_sad:

There are vegans in Tennessee? WTF?

I read that, I thought, "Maybe he's in Santa Cruz. Oh, Hulk, you poor fuck, now I know why you said that..."

Not that I don't love Santa Cruz and find it a beautiful place, but many of the men there aren't really men.

I'm not ovolacto anymore, but that's only because I'm lazy. If you met a hulking a vegetarian like me, you wouldn't have become so jaded to the metrosexuality that is nonessential to vegeterianism, but seems to court it at every opportunity.

 

[Madmick]

Entropy, I'm so lazy, do you know off the top of your head what doses of soy were given to these men in these studies? It was my understanding that most of the negative effects occured only when massive quantities were consumed.

I'm still waiting for Terumo to comment on it in D&S, he said the same thing as you, but he didn't elaborate.

 

[ENTROPY]

Entropy, I'm so lazy, do you know off the top of your head what doses of soy were given to these men in these studies? It was my understanding that most of the negative effects occured only when massive quantities were consumed.

The decrease in testicular growth of infants fed soy based formula has not been observed using massive amounts of soy. Rather, specific comparisons were made between babies who ingested milk vs soy based formula, and the measurable effects observed with the use of each.

Before going further, I have two questions:

1* What evidence, if any, has specifically lead you to the assumption that massive doses are were required to achieve the stated results?

2* Can you cite a single study where the protocol required massive doses of soy as opposed to smaller doses?

 

[Madmick]

The decrease in testicular growth of infants fed soy based formula has not been observed using massive amounts of soy. Rather, specific comparisons were made between babies who ingested milk vs soy based formula, and the measurable effects observed with the use of each.

Before going further, I have two questions:

1* What evidence, if any, has specifically lead you to the assumption that massive doses are were required to achieve the stated results?

2* Can you cite a single study where the protocol required massive doses of soy as opposed to smaller doses?

1) This is what I was told by a vegetarian friend who is also an athlete, and someone I trust. That's why I was so taken aback when Terumo mentioned in D&S that some people eyes had bled in a study (especially when every freaking study I've seen on soy is done on rats or women).
*EDIT* I read Terumo's post SO wrong. He said he'd read studies until his eyes bled, not that soy makes people's eyes "bleed".

2) No. Usually I'm just surfing abstracts, though, and there always seem to be as many that demonstrate positive effects of soy administration as negative ones (Example Abstract from PubMed)

The problem is that since these are all done on rats, I don't know what the protocol is for applying dosages to humans even when I take the time to look them up. Do I simply adjust for the size difference between a man and a rat? Would this account for metabolic differences? I don't understand how to make these adjustments.

I hit my head against this wall a couple years ago, and that's when I asked my friend, who said that the dosages used in these studies, if applied to men, would be unreasonable. Since the AKG/OKG studies all apply a dose to rats that equates to 30g daily in humans (an impossible amount to supplement without becoming nauseous), this seemed sound to me even now.

As for gynecomastia, I would have difficulty believing this (if a study suggested it), if only for the reason I have been an acquaintance of dozens of male vegetarians, and a portion of those eat tofu at every meal, and none of them display these feminine characteristics (at least physically). That's not scientific, though, so I won't dwell on it.


As for the study involving infants: that's some good information, but how applicable is that to a grown man's endocrine system? I'm not concerned with testicular development, I'm concerned with testicular atrophy. This seems like a fragile time to be depriving a human of animal sources of protein: during their infancy. Furthermore, I'd like to note that this is only soy taken as a substistute for milk. What for an athlete who intends to take both?

You've compiled a great list, but I have some face-value objections. For example, the study I'm most interested in reading is #5, since it involves human males, but my first question is: how did they decide that with the literally thousands of mass-scale variables between cultures (not to mention genetics), that soy alone would be the cause of Southeast Asian men's smaller stature.

Now, I haven't read the study. Maybe for the Westerners they compared only men of Southeast Asian descent living (and acclimated to) the West. Like I said, these are face-value musings.

These are the two points I want to learn more about:
* Decrease in total testosterone.
* Lowering of total sperm count.

Study #1, right? But this was performed on rats, too. What are the strengths of a study like this, what are its weaknesses? And what were the equivalent dosages to men in this study (if there's no similar study involving humans)?

 

[HULKAMANIA]

If they did that crap to humans, wouldn't you hate to be the kid who has to live forever with retarded testicular development because your mom volunteered you for the greater good of science? I think there would be some serious bitterness there.

And btw now I'm not a white-belt. I feel like I can start dispensing my infinite wisdom now.