Vaccines are not associated with autism: An evidence-based meta-analysis

[Kevin Rudd]

is this picture for real?

unfortunately it is.

Polio.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

unfortunately it is.

Polio.

Thank god they weren't exposed to that evil Polio vaccine....they might have had a 0.0001 chance of getting Autism.

 

[Mayhem Man]

Is this a thing anywhere else than in the U.S.??

 

[Pelosi2020]

The Human race and your grandparents survived just fine the first 199,950 years. We're going to make it.


This is relevent to this thread though:
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/home/eng/Acetaminophen.asp
http://ventography.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/update-from-dr-shaw-acetaminophen-and-autism-connection/

■“It appears that the marked increase in the rate of autism throughout much of the world may be largely mediated by the marked increase in the use of acetaminophen in genetically and/or metabolically susceptible children and perhaps the use of acetaminophen by pregnant women.”
■Because many children with autism have defective sulfation, they cannot properly detoxify acetaminophen. Therefore, it becomes toxic.
■This then leads to intestinal Clostridia bacteria overgrowth.
■Then the Clostridia bacteria cause overproduction of brain dopamine and reduced concentrations of brain norepinephrine.
■Too much dopamine leads to obsessive, compulsive, and stereotypical behaviors.
■Too little norepinephrine leads to reduced exploratory behavior and learning in new environments.
■Because sulfation is often defective for people with autism, the body cannot use proper pathways to get rid of acetaminophen. Therefore, the body sends a larger than normal amount of acetaminophen to be detoxified by a pathway called cytochrome p450 2E1.
■The problem with this pathway is that it leads to excessive production of N-acetyl-p-benzoquinone imine (NAPQI), a very toxic metabolite.
■NAPQI is dangerous because it depletes glutathione which then reduces the body’s ability to detoxify a host of toxic chemicals in the environment.
■In addition, the increase of NAPQI creates oxidative stress which leads to protein, lipid, and nucleic acid damage from free radicals. It also causes an increased rate of damage to mitochondrial and nuclear DNA.
■NAPQI production has been found to be increased in humans at recommended dosages of acetaminophen and would be expected to be even higher in people with diminished sulfation capacity (as is often seen in autism).
■BOTTOM LINE: Question your acetaminophen use.

 

[Ruprecht]

Is this a thing anywhere else than in the U.S.??

Yeah, but we (Oz) mostly just get the dippy hippy types, not the far-right, anti-government cranks.

 

[Ruprecht]

The Human race and your grandparents survived just fine the first 199,950 years. We're going to make it.

Yeah... although my great-aunt died of Polio and I personally would be dead several times over without modern medicine.
When was the last time you visited a leper colony?

 

[Pelosi2020]

Yeah... although my great-aunt died of Polio and I personally would be dead several times over without modern medicine.
When was the last time you visited a leper colony?

When did we vaccinate for leprocy?

Just advice, you shouldn't use a leprocy as a point because 95% of people are naturally immune to it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprosy#Prevention

Several genes have been associated with a susceptibility to leprosy. It is believed that around 95% of people are naturally immune.

For the other 5% there is a recent invention called antibiotics.

Tuberculosis would be a much better example of a modern and dangerous disease that no one has natural immunity to and can spread rapidly...............only problem is we don't vaccinate for TB anymore.

 

[Ruprecht]

When did we vaccinate for leprocy?

Just advice, you shouldn't use a leprocy as a point because 95% of people are naturally immune to it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprosy#Prevention

For the other 5% there is a recent invention called antibiotics.

Tuberculosis would be a much better example of a modern and dangerous disease that no one has natural immunity to and can spread rapidly...............only problem is we don't vaccinate for TB anymore.

The TB vaccine actually helped with the elimination of leprosy in many places. As in that's a proven and documented "side effect".
I wasn't just posting about vaccines though. Since you posted about acetaminophen I figured you have a problem with mainstream medical practice in general and broadened the scope.

 

[Pelosi2020]

Here is a bacteria that we need to be scared about:
Chlamydophila pneumoniae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlamydophila_pneumoniae

In research into the association between C. pneumoniae infection and atherosclerosis and coronary artery disease, serological testing, direct pathologic analysis of plaques, and in vitro testing suggest chronic infection with C. pneumoniae may be a risk factor for development of atherosclerotic plaques. C. pneumoniae infection increases adherence of macro****es to endothelial cells in vitro and aortas ex vivo.[10] However, the current data do not define how often C. pneumoniae is found in atherosclerotic or normal vascular tissue, nor does it allow for determining whether C. pneumoniae infection has a causative effect on atheroma formation or is merely an "innocent passenger" in these plaques. The largest trials that studied the use of antibiotics as a prevention for diseases associated with atherosclerosis, such as heart attacks and strokes, did not show any significant difference between antibiotics and placebo.[11]

Causese a bunch of other diseases and there is no cure. Abx do not work on this bacteria.

 

[Pelosi2020]

The TB vaccine actually helped with the elimination of leprosy in many places. As in that's a proven and documented "side effect".
I wasn't just posting about vaccines though. Since you posted about acetaminophen I figured you have a problem with mainstream medical practice in general and broadened the scope.

The CDC recently updated the rate of autism in the US to 1 in 68 children. This at an epidemic level (has been, just saying).

Newer studies are showing that environment is just as causative as genetics in Autism.
Environment as important as genes in autism, study finds

Most previous studies have suggested heritability of autism may be as high as 80 to 90 percent. But this new study, the largest and most comprehensive to date, found genetics factors only explained around half of the cause of the disorder.

We need to cast a larger net. The cause is probably multi-factoral and not simply singular as "vaccines". Acetaminophen is looking like it could be a major player in this and could possibly initiate a cascade when combined with genetics, diet, drugs used during pregancy, heavy metal exposure, and/or vaccines.

 

[def1]

The Human race and your grandparents survived just fine the first 199,950 years. We're going to make it.


This is relevent to this thread though:
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/home/eng/Acetaminophen.asp
http://ventography.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/update-from-dr-shaw-acetaminophen-and-autism-connection/

Honestly, why does autism need to be "linked" to something.

Anyways that explanation of a link between autism and tylenol is laughable. They make so many leaps in logic that its hard to take it seriously.

Even if we accept that Autism is associated with defective sulphation (I honestly haven't looked into it) the rest of the stuff does not follow.

It is true that tylenol will build up toxic metabolites when normal metabolism is oversaturated. There are two pathways, sulfation and glucuronidation with majority being glucuronidation pathway. So these autistic patients would have about 65-70% working normal drug metabolism.

Lets say this was enough to cause tylenol toxic metabolites to accumulate. Before they affected the brain, they would destroy the liver. However, lets go into even more depth of why that story does not make sense.

For one, I fail to see how NAPQI (toxic metabolite) would somehow cause intestinal bacteria to develop, especially clostridia (by the way which type of clostridia). Even further how does this clostridia magically cause dopamine overproduction? Even if it did, the dopamine would somehow have to travel from the intestine into the brain, which although possible (maybe), it would first have disastrous effects on the gut (good luck trying to poop with dopamine running through the intestine) and more serious effects once it hit the blood stream (heart racing, vasoconstriction; this is one of the chemicals we give for cardiogenic shock).

So yea none of that adds up at all even with those huge leaps of logic they are trying to make.

 

[Pelosi2020]

^^ So what you are saying is that acetaminophen toxicity in a population that is known for high rates of defective sulfation is a stone best left unturned?

Seeing how we have 1 in 68 kids with autism now and even the best researchers agreeing that it is outpacing "better diagnosis", we need to explore every possible path because the fact of the matter is no doctor / researcher has proven the cause which is going to have an environmental factor.

Just additional information, clostridia infection is a very common comorbid condition with ASD. Some kids in there teens have never taken 1 normal dump their whole life.

Getting back at the cascade effect, imagine a child going to the doctor with a fever. The doc Rx's tylenol for the fever and abx because abx are overprescribed. The oral tylenol wipes out most of the GSH in the gut which would impair the immune system and increase gut permeability. Add in some front line abx like penicilin and now you've wiped out all good gut flora. Clostridia is gram negative and immune to the penicilins. Now the clositridia has no competition and will overgrow into gut dysbiosis. The child gets the squirts or constipation with impacted stools (both common in ASD) and is in pain so they go back to the doc who prescribes more tylenol and penicilin.

I agree that there are leaps in logic with that study but it is quite plausible and should be looked into further.

 

[Jukai]

You do realize autism is so radically up because we recently reclassified several behavioral issues that weren't traditionally thought as a problem, to autism... right?

 

[def1]

^^ So what you are saying is that acetaminophen toxicity in a population that is known for high rates of defective sulfation is a stone best left unturned?

No, but I'm saying the outcomes don't match the hypotheses.

Seeing how we have 1 in 68 kids with autism now and even the best researchers agreeing that it is outpacing "better diagnosis", we need to explore every possible path because the fact of the matter is no doctor / researcher has proven the cause which is going to have an environmental factor.

Just additional information, clostridia infection is a very common comorbid condition with ASD. Some kids in there teens have never taken 1 normal dump their whole life.

Getting back at the cascade effect, imagine a child going to the doctor with a fever. The doc Rx's tylenol for the fever and abx because abx are overprescribed. The oral tylenol wipes out most of the GSH in the gut which would impair the immune system and increase gut permeability. Add in some front line abx like penicilin and now you've wiped out all good gut flora. Clostridia is gram negative and immune to the penicilins. Now the clositridia has no competition and will overgrow into gut dysbiosis. The child gets the squirts or constipation with impacted stools (both common in ASD) and is in pain so they go back to the doc who prescribes more tylenol and penicilin.

I agree that there are leaps in logic with that study but it is quite plausible and should be looked into further.

Clostridia overgrowth in the gut (which would most likely be C. diff) is severely toxic and these kids would have explosive diarrhea. Not your normal I shouldn't have ate that 3 day old chinese diarrhea, I'm talking about shit literally exploding all over the walls for hours a day accompanied by extreme dehydration.

Again though I fail to see how clostridia causes an increase in dopamine although I'm not a microbiology expert so its possible I guess.

Also if the levels of GSH were low enough to cause a problem with immunity there would be other noticeable effects as well. People who have low GSH (e.g., G6PD deficiency or GSH deficiency) develop anemia, usually severe, and other symptoms that a doctor should be able to notice on exams. And immunity issues usually occur with severe GSH deficiency, and by then you'd have seizures and severe anemia to account for.

So unless doctors are missing liver toxicity, anemia, and other symptoms associated with acetaminophen overdose or GSH deficiency then while it might be "plausible" it doesn't seem probable.

 

[Pelosi2020]

You do realize autism is so radically up because we recently reclassified several behavioral issues that weren't traditionally thought as a problem, to autism... right?

This is part of the increase, no argument there, but the best researchers agree that there are additional factors. These re-diagnosis's are certainly muddying the waters in a subject that is already a gigantic enigma.


Here is a deep thought. Some kids recover from ASD. An additional and troubling question is "what" is keeping some kids autistic? How is it possible for some to recover? And is it possible to discover some techniques that can help some of these kids?

Consider this video on the recovery of 1 child:

 

[Kevin Rudd]

Here is a deep thought. Some kids recover from ASD. An additional and troubling question is "what" is keeping some kids autistic? How is it possible for some to recover? And is it possible to discover some techniques that can help some of these kids?

Consider this video on the recovery of 1 child:

I don't even know where to start with this as it is full of ignorance.

No they don't 'recover'. It is not a virus you can simply recover from.

There are proven OT methods and teaching methods which help autistic children integrate into society and develop their social skills.

If given the proper treatment and education, the symptons appear as recovery like but in reality they will always be autistic.

Children with autism who are taught by conventional methods will suffer and possibly regress. Austistic children need constant visual learning aids in order to understand and comprehend. If they can't visualise it then they will have significant difficulty learning and appearing to recover from it as you like to phrase it.

 

[Pelosi2020]

No, but I'm saying the outcomes don't match the hypotheses.



Clostridia overgrowth in the gut (which would most likely be C. diff) is severely toxic and these kids would have explosive diarrhea. Not your normal I shouldn't have ate that 3 day old chinese diarrhea, I'm talking about shit literally exploding all over the walls for hours a day accompanied by extreme dehydration.

Again though I fail to see how clostridia causes an increase in dopamine although I'm not a microbiology expert so its possible I guess.

Also if the levels of GSH were low enough to cause a problem with immunity there would be other noticeable effects as well. People who have low GSH (e.g., G6PD deficiency or GSH deficiency) develop anemia, usually severe, and other symptoms that a doctor should be able to notice on exams. And immunity issues usually occur with severe GSH deficiency, and by then you'd have seizures and severe anemia to account for.

So unless doctors are missing liver toxicity, anemia, and other symptoms associated with acetaminophen overdose or GSH deficiency then while it might be "plausible" it doesn't seem probable.

Some people develop chronic infections of C.diff that are not to the level of discomfort that you described above. C.diff can strip the interior lining off the walls of the intestines, and imbed itself deep into the tissue making treatment times long and relapses common. The player here is the tylenol and if it is causing certain locations to lose GSH faster than GSH is lost in the liver. Maybe a time release formula that stays in the gut longer. GSH loss in the gut combined with abx would make the gut vulnerable to clostridia infection.

Clostridia, I read recently is now the most common transferred pathogen to patients in hospitals.
Not that specific article but this one discusses the subject of c.diff transferrence in hospitals: http://hospitalinfection.org/newsite/resources/infection-facts/preventing-c-diff

I wonder if there is a connection with increasing c.diff infections and ASD??

Like I mentioned above, the cause is most likely going to be multi-factoral. I think if it was a singular cause we would have found it long ago. We are now going on 15-20 years since the rates began rapidly rising and we do not appear to be close to finding causation. At the rate we are going in 10 more years we could potentially be at 1 in 30.

Thx for the good and civil conversation btw. This has been fruitful.

 

[Pelosi2020]

I don't even know where to start with this as it is full of ignorance.

No they don't 'recover'. It is not a virus you can simply recover from.

There are proven OT methods and teaching methods which help autistic children integrate into society and develop their social skills.

If given the proper treatment and education, the symptons appear as recovery like but in reality they will always be autistic.

Children with autism who are taught by conventional methods will suffer and possibly regress. Austistic children need constant visual learning aids in order to understand and comprehend. If they can't visualise it then they will have significant difficulty learning and appearing to recover from it as you like to phrase it.

ASD kids have a slew of comorbid medical and nutritional issues. Low GSH and the sulfation pathway have been discussed numerous times in this thread. Mitochondria deficiencies, pandas (Strep B infection), food allergies, and autoimmune problems are also very common.
Teaching techniques are of course very valuable - personally I think it has to due with stimulating specific areas of the brain while the kids are still malleable - no one would dispute that.

But... that video is about a clear case of recovery as we're ever going to see. Regarding the viral / valtrex thing, the benefit from that may not have been viral related (although some life-long virii like herpes, ebv, and cmv will auto-activate when GSH levels are low) but through a secondary function of regulating adenosine, along with B12, will help improve sulfation. I just think this kind of thing needs to be looked into further.

 

[AznTrojan]

wow.. pelosi2016 took this shit to another level of stupidity..

 

[Kevin Rudd]

ASD kids have a slew of comorbid medical and nutritional issues. Low GSH and the sulfation pathway have been discussed numerous times in this thread. Mitochondria deficiencies, pandas (Strep B infection), food allergies, and autoimmune problems are also very common.
Teaching techniques are of course very valuable - personally I think it has to due with stimulating specific areas of the brain while the kids are still malleable - no one would dispute that.

But... that video is about a clear case of recovery as we're ever going to see. Regarding the viral / valtrex thing, the benefit from that may not have been viral related (although some life-long virii like herpes, ebv, and cmv will auto-activate when GSH levels are low) but through a secondary function of regulating adenosine, along with B12, will help improve sulfation. I just think this kind of thing needs to be looked into further.

Another willfully ignorant post full of generalisations and bullshit. Not even worthy of a response to be honest.

You've got no idea.