Using Quads in MT Kick

What do you mean by "a relaxed manner"? Karate teaches to tense at the moment of impact, not to remain relaxed the whole time. You have to be tense when you strike or your strike has no power. There's no such thing as fully relaxed strike, every strike uses some muscles, and muscles only work by contracting.
 
What do you mean by "a relaxed manner"? Karate teaches to tense at the moment of impact, not to remain relaxed the whole time. You have to be tense when you strike or your strike has no power. There's no such thing as fully relaxed strike, every strike uses some muscles, and muscles only work by contracting.

We're about to get theoretical. :)

The long term goal is to deliver your techniques in the most relaxed manner possible with minimial muscles tensing except at the moment of contact. It's already been shown that premature tensing lessens power. Additionally, your muscles will naturally contract/tense at the end of a technique to keep your limbs within their natural range of motion. So, the majority of your muscle use should be in the core with much less use at the extremities.

Part of the problem with thinking about muscle use in technique is that muscles can contract in opposing manners during the same technique thus reducing power.

Imagine the human body with no muscles, no tendons, ligaments, etc anywhere except in the core. A skeleton with abs, lol. How would the core have to move to extend the arm or the leg? A twist of core would twist the upper body then the shoulder. The shoulder's momentum would launch the upper arm out. At that point, the upper arm's momentum would extend the forearm and the hand will travel towards a target. At that moment, add back in the muscles and tendons and form a tensed fist. That's the level of relaxed technique that I'm talking about.

I'm sure you can already see how the MT kick uses a lot of the same priniciples and the way the karate kick is taught violates them. If there were no muscles on the skeleton's leg, you couldn't force the lower leg extension.

Instead, the inital core rotation would have to be so violent that the upper leg shoots out drawing the lower leg into a chambered position. The "turning over the hip" movement, that most MT students are familiar with, ensures that the body's momentum continues through a change of direction that, whip-like, launches out the lower leg. Again, add back the muscles and tense enough to get through contact before relaxing as you finish the technique.

Another example: Throw a reverse elbow and let the momentum extend your arm. Now, throw a pure back fist. That's the difference in relaxation and muscle use. It may not feel like it but the back elbow that turns into a back fist is the faster/more powerful technique.

Obviously, it takes years of practice to reach that level of relaxed, but powerful, technique. But it's what I, as a karateka, should be working towards. I don't have enough MT experience to know if it the same goal exists for them.
 
Last edited:
Just for clarity sake, I don't feel that one is the MT method and one is the karate method. At the place I trained kyokushin, my sensei (instructor) explained that the way we do roundhouse kicks came from MT. In Kyokushin we throw leg kicks, which land with the shin.

It seems that the only difference to me was that in the dojo I was at, I was taught to keep the knee bent before contact while still following through with the torso and hips. I'm not even sure I would consider it chambering the leg, as my understanding of chambering is that in TKD the knee is brought straight up before every kick, so that the opponent never knows which technique is about to be used.

Steelhammer- I understand what you are saying, but I don't see why it should be impossible to keep the torso and hips rigid while extending the knee. Although the quads flex the hips, the abs and obliques are responsible for the body stability.

Once again, I'm not trying to promote one method while putting another down. It just sounded weird to me, when I read on this forum that in MT the leg is swung like a baseball bat!
 
panamaican- the method you are describing sounds whiplike to me, being core-driven, and I don't believe that will ever really generate as much power. Alot of styles claim to use whiplike motion, but I personally don't believe that can generate as much power. You can knock someone out with it, yes, but you can knock someone out with almost anything, if you have timing and know when to strike. Fist or leg speed is not paramount to power. I want to have follow-through and force behind my techniques.

Bennosuke- Extending the knee requires the hamstrings / rear thigh muscles to be relaxed. Swinging the thigh without keeping it tightly in line with the torso (swinging it around the axis of the horizontal pelvis, knee toward chin) also requires the gluteus to stay relaxed. This is because those are the opposing muscle groups. Keeping the leg relaxed also means that torso tension is removed from the equation, not because it's physically impossible to clench your torso at that time, but because when the striking leg is not tightened (tightening meaning opposing muscles groups are both attempting to contract, locking the limb), which it therefore is not, any torso tightening would be pointless without a locked limb to extend that tightness into.
 
panamaican- the method you are describing sounds whiplike to me, being core-driven, and I don't believe that will ever really generate as much power. Alot of styles claim to use whiplike motion, but I personally don't believe that can generate as much power. You can knock someone out with it, yes, but you can knock someone out with almost anything, if you have timing and know when to strike. Fist or leg speed is not paramount to power. I want to have follow-through and force behind my techniques.

Bennosuke- Extending the knee requires the hamstrings / rear thigh muscles to be relaxed. Swinging the thigh without keeping it tightly in line with the torso (swinging it around the axis of the horizontal pelvis, knee toward chin) also requires the gluteus to stay relaxed. This is because those are the opposing muscle groups. Keeping the leg relaxed also means that torso tension is removed from the equation, not because it's physically impossible to clench your torso at that time, but because when the striking leg is not tightened (tightening meaning opposing muscles groups are both attempting to contract, locking the limb), which it therefore is not, any torso tightening would be pointless without a locked limb to extend that tightness into.

Every style uses a variation of the "whip like" core driven techniques because it is the best way to generate power. Boxing, karate, MT all originate the techniques via core drive. Every time boxers talk about snapping a punch, they're talking about using the "whip like" principles. The terminology is different but the principle remains the same. I would like to take credit for it but every striking coach of almost every striking art preaches the same thing. Hooks, uppercuts, crosses, jabs, roundhouses, etc. The only difference is that people don't reference it with their kicking as frequently, even the principle is still being applied.

That prinicple is the best way to generate power and ensure quality follow through. Every core driven technique has maximum follow through because we're not aborting the motion prematurely. Our technique is following the core through it's full range of motion. That's the only real way to maximize follow through.

I guess I don't see any distinction since in your paragraph to Bennosuke you're decribing how certain muscles should be kept relaxed so that opposing muscle groups don't sap the technique of power. That is the goal of of "whip like" core driven techniques - total physical looseness so that only the required muscles for any technique ever come into play.

I think you're having more of an issue with the terminology I'm using since you're describing the exact same principle. The MT roundhouse is actually a perfect example of a "whip like" technique. :)
 
Last edited:
What do you mean by torso tightening? At first I thought you meant engaging the abs and obliques to turn the body forward and around, but now I am not so sure...
 
The tightening of the torso seems to come naturally with the mechanics of how the upper body is used in the kick.
The way in which you need to move your torso to properly create the momentum and arc of the kick makes it happen automatically.

I can't really describe it any other way. One day the instructor told me to turn my shoulder through the kick and then - bam - I had the muay thai kick figured out.
 
But why would rotating the torso via the obliques and back muscles require stability produced by the hip extensors of the kicking leg. If anything it should be the muscles of the supporting leg that come into play. Furthermore, even with co-contraction of the hamstrings at the hip, the quads can still produce a powerful extensor torque at the knee.
 
well, I'm going to do extensive testing the next time i'm at a heavy bag in 1-2 days. will report back.
 
But why would rotating the torso via the obliques and back muscles require stability produced by the hip extensors of the kicking leg. If anything it should be the muscles of the supporting leg that come into play. Furthermore, even with co-contraction of the hamstrings at the hip, the quads can still produce a powerful extensor torque at the knee.

You're right. Rotating the torso via the obliques and lower back muscles doesn't require stability from the kicking leg, only the supporting leg.

I think Steelhammer's talking about the proper sequencing of the muscles during the kick, where the hip extensors are needed at the beginning of the rotation to support the kicking leg on it's upward trajectory but they're not as important as you finish the rotation. At the midpoint of the arc, the hip extensors on the kicking leg aren't needed to hold the leg up anymore since the leg is on it's way back down. "Turning over the hips" is all that's really needed to pull the leg through the rest of it's arc.

It's at that midpoint, that the quads get to step in and power the lower leg extension without fighting any co-contraction of the hamstrings.
 
But why would rotating the torso via the obliques and back muscles require stability produced by the hip extensors of the kicking leg. If anything it should be the muscles of the supporting leg that come into play. Furthermore, even with co-contraction of the hamstrings at the hip, the quads can still produce a powerful extensor torque at the knee

Yes it can still produce a powerful force, but not as powerful. I played around with this on the heavy bag before class yesterday. I can still kick very hard with the karate style, but muay thai is literally twice as hard, at least judging by the movement of the bag.

I couldn't rationalize the bio-mechanics of it either when I was first learning it, and it took me a while to drop my bias against what I thought didn't make sense mechanically/strategically. One big aspect of generating power in the muay thai kick is the throwing down/back of the arm on the kicking side to help generate torque through the torso. I refused to do that for the first few weeks due to years of being trained to always keep both hands up when kicking.

All you need to know is: momentum > muscular tweaking at the last second
 
OK, here's the lowdown since we have people that don't do either giving explanations, people that have only ever done one giving explanations and random opinions.

First off, the power from kyokushin roundhouses comes from the pivot, the chamber and position of the knee through the target arching downward 90 degrees into the target creating an incredible whip effect (ala Hoost or Aerts famous leg kicks). If this isn't how you are kicking you are either practicing Muay Thai or your practicing bad kickboxing(chamber leg, randomly fire with little effect).

The second school of thought is the Muay Thai way(equally as devastating but in a different way). There is a mild chamber(bend to the knee) on the leg kicks but its mostly a pivot and torque technique. The main reason the leg is kept straight is to keep it from getting blocked as easily. When you heavily chamber(ala Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara) there is a bigger opening to block or jam the kick and while there is less steam on a Muay Thai round house, there is a smaller window for blocking. This is created by a push effect that even when blocked can knock a fighter off balance and set them up for more.

I find properly placed leg kicks(Kyokushin style) to be more devastating but easier to see and defend when not set up correctly. Muay Thai kicks are a bit faster and harder to block but don't necessarily have the same power to them.

Rather than separate them though, I am an advocate of combining the two for greater effect(once again, see Hoost).

I hope this helps a bit.
 
Yes it can still produce a powerful force, but not as powerful. I played around with this on the heavy bag before class yesterday. I can still kick very hard with the karate style, but muay thai is literally twice as hard, at least judging by the movement of the bag.

I couldn't rationalize the bio-mechanics of it either when I was first learning it, and it took me a while to drop my bias against what I thought didn't make sense mechanically/strategically. One big aspect of generating power in the muay thai kick is the throwing down/back of the arm on the kicking side to help generate torque through the torso. I refused to do that for the first few weeks due to years of being trained to always keep both hands up when kicking.

All you need to know is: momentum > muscular tweaking at the last second

You're making it a push kick. For example, push the heavy bag. Now punch it. Which one made the bag move more? Striking power is about penetration, not movement.
 
Did you watch me kick the bag? Shut the fcuk up.

The method you describe works for throwing leg kicks only. I thought this was about the roundhouse kick in general......

Before I took muay thai, I did learn that "hoost/aerts" style whip kick to the leg, and some muay thai schools teach it the same way specifically for leg kicks and call it a "whip kick" as distinct from a roundhouse.
 
Last edited:
Did you watch me kick the bag? Shut the fuck up.

The method you describe works for throwing leg kicks only. I thought this was about the roundhouse kick in general......

Before I took muay thai, I did learn that "hoost/aerts" style whip kick to the leg, and some muay thai schools teach it the same way specifically for leg kicks and call it a "whip kick" as distinct from a roundhouse.

LOL. Thanks for proving my point.

You don't throw straight leg high kicks in any style. You can't make it over the shoulder that way.

The author was asking about the difference between a muay thai kick and a kyokushin kick. If he didn't mean low then he is confused. In reference to a high or mid, they are thrown the same way.
 
I don't even think about kicking the damned thing anymore, just step and kick, step and kick, shit, I hit my foot. I'm a dumb ass. Step and kick...

This is some in depth analysis, I'm amazed.
 
OZ is right about how much the bag moves. A powerful technique will penetrate the bag more than it will cause it to move. For example, I can push the bag with my arm and move it more than when I punch, but that doesn't make my push more powerful than my punch. That just means the force is being applied over a longer time.

I think a good example of what I am thinking of may be this guy's video, even though he is obnoxious...
YouTube - Taekwondo Full Roundhouse Kick Tutorial (Kwonkicker) Also he says he's TKD, but this doesn't look like any TKD i've seen
 
I am not "pushing" the bag with a muay thai kick, if you have some stylistic preference in believe karate kicks are more powerful, fine, it only demonstrates the how discussing technique on a form can be futile.

I'm speaking from my own experience if you just want to assume I was doing the karate style kick wrong for 15 years without ever seeing me demonstrate you are just being a dick.
 
Back
Top