US : Assad no longer 'has to go' ??

[whougonnacall]

Ok lets not name Assad since you will go around with your conspiracy that Assad created the rebels to become irreplaceable.

Between *generic brutal secular dictator* or the islamists, ill pick the dictator.

In fact it goes like this

Generic western backed secular dictator > generic minority dictator > generic majority dictator > Islamist.

no he released islamists so the opposition would be less attractive to back for the west and ordinary syrians while on the other setting loose the full terror apparatus at his disposal


but theres the issue his regime is sectarian it always has been, a veil of secularism and some buy in by sunnis etcc doesnt hide the fact alawites have a hugely disproportionate share of power there

 

[whougonnacall]

-They all want to establish an islamic state, the only difference they have is who is going to run the state.

-Arab countries? yes. Arabs in general? no, there are plenty of secular and minority religious arab communities in the world that are pretty damn succesful.
Carlos Slim is arab and he is the richest self-made man in the world.


-LOL and the rebels are just doing it on their own? the support Assad receives pales in comparison to the support the rebels receive.

-And what about the reverse? should the russians had stopped fighting Hitler because Stalin was a tyrant? Should the russian jews?

-Its currently an islamic state, turkey is an islamic state, uae is an islamic state so is S.A....the question is what kind of islamic state emerges

-Ok col as long as you can just openly say it

-other way round irans support alone dwarfs what we in the west have given

-If they fight to he last they are finished , some sort of deal is their only hope
fighting forever isnt the solution

 

[Edgar Allan Hoe]

Pat Buchanan summed it up perfectly. He said we keep looking to take out dictators but we aren't looking ahead to see what comes after and if that will be worse than the dictatorship in the first place.

 

[whougonnacall]

-Except the rebellion is completely sectarian. The minorities are siding with Assad for a reason.

-I'm saying this tyrant is preferable to the even more opressive sunni-ruled future rebels represent. You can try your retarded spinning on this but the reality is there and the minorities who actually live in Syria realise this.


-The druze are on Assads side although Suweyda has seen little fighting. Al-Nusra has attacked Druze outposts several times further pushing the Druze to the goverments side. One of the most popular leaders in the army is Druze and he commands an elite republican guard druze force. You cannot find any of this on the rebel side.

-Assyrians are pro-goverment so are other christians. The twelver shias are of course on the goverments side because they know their end if the takfirists ever get into power.

-Kurds have their own agenda and works together with the goverment in Hasakah and Qamshili. Although there are tensions the goverment has never launched offensives comparable to what the rebels have done(even before ISIS). Much of the rebel side has promised to make sure kurds don't get autonomy if Assad ever falls, you would know this from your precious "charters".

-For "manpower running out"-narrative there is a law in Syria for a family to only have one son serving in the army at the same time still.
-
It's funny you try to spin it as the goverment being dependent on foreign fighters and support when the rebel side is 100% reliant on outside help.


-This is 2015 not 2012. The goverment is in control or majority control of every important city and there is no signs of it crashing down anytime soon.

- Its sectarian on both sides and if they were siding with him he wouldnt be falling back onto relying on consripts again

-They were already under one of the most repressive regimes on earth , the worst that can happen is its as bad as that.

-One of assad 2 best generals is a druze yes one of the rare non alawite officers , sent to save deir ez zour airport from isis and left it just after arriving to go to suwedya to ask for druze help.....and promptly told to fuck off so he returned and admitidly he and his alawite rep guard have done quite well , but minus the druze help he wanted
but overall the druze arent his allies their religious leaders have spoke out to not voulnteer for his forces , barracks have been attacked to free consripted druze men , consription patrols attacked and beaten and even a high ranking intel officer held hostage til a community leader let go in return....the druze arent rebelling (well there are druze rebel groups but tiny) but they arent going to assist either

- the christians ?
http://www.economist.com/node/21559392

the kurds arent on anyones side but their own , the non agression pact in hasaka to tag team isis is now been replaced by a free for all
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/01/17/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-kurds-idUKKBN0KQ0KC20150117


-http://iswsyria.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/the-assad-regime-under-stress.html#!/2014/12/the-assad-regime-under-stress.html
http://www.understandingwar.org/bac...y-threatens-assad-damascus-and-southern-syria
http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-assad-regimes-military-may-be-running-out-of-soldiers-2014-12
Yeah hes got a manpower problem.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/assads-indispensable-foreign-legions-
Assads side is much more reliant on foriegn cash and weaponry (the rebels openly talk of 85-90% weaponry being home made, smuggled in or taken from regieme) and foriegn manpower and technical assistance.
the arms and cash from us and the gulf states pales in comparison to what iran /hezbollah/ iraq / russia etc has given plus they have actualy commited significant boots on the ground


-Yeah its 2015 and things are getting increasingly worse for him

 

[Makani]

I think maybe the US is wising up to what happens when you destabilize a government, there is a very real chance that a group you don't like, and who really doesn't like you, will pick up the pieces. Only took half a century, well done.

 

[Fronk]

- Its sectarian on both sides and if they were siding with him he wouldnt be falling back onto relying on consripts again

Except minorities on the rebel side is nowhere to be found. If it has become sectarian its because the rebel pushed them there with the "Christians to Beirut and Alawites to the grave" rhetoric since its inception. Sure the goverment favored Alawites in many cases but its nowhere as bad as living in an opressive sunni state.

-They were already under one of the most repressive regimes on earth , the worst that can happen is its as bad as that.

This is nothing but your retarded opinion. A large majority of middle class secular sunnis and the minorities would rather live under the goverment than the shitty jihadistan the rebels represent.

-One of assad 2 best generals is a druze yes one of the rare non alawite officers , sent to save deir ez zour airport from isis and left it just after arriving to go to suwedya to ask for druze help.....and promptly told to fuck off so he returned and admitidly he and his alawite rep guard have done quite well , but minus the druze help he wanted
but overall the druze arent his allies their religious leaders have spoke out to not voulnteer for his forces , barracks have been attacked to free consripted druze men , consription patrols attacked and beaten and even a high ranking intel officer held hostage til a community leader let go in return....the druze arent rebelling (well there are druze rebel groups but tiny) but they arent going to assist either

I can barely read this horribly written text sorry but there has been some conflict between the Druze community and the goverment. Mainly because they are not getting enough support to fight rebel groups like Al-Nusra that stands on their doorstep and wants their blood.

- the christians ?
http://www.economist.com/node/21559392

Thanks for posting an article from 2012 you idiot.

the kurds arent on anyones side but their own , the non agression pact in hasaka to tag team isis is now been replaced by a free for all
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/01/17/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-kurds-idUKKBN0KQ0KC20150117

No it hasn't, this small skirmish over checkpoints in the city is already over. Status quo again. I wouldn't expect you to know this since you really know jackshit about anything.

-http://iswsyria.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/the-assad-regime-under-stress.html#!/2014/12/the-assad-regime-under-stress.html
http://www.understandingwar.org/bac...y-threatens-assad-damascus-and-southern-syria
http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-assad-regimes-military-may-be-running-out-of-soldiers-2014-12
Yeah hes got a manpower problem.

Yawn.... yes yes this rhetoric has been going on for years. He was supposed to have fallen years ago but yet the goverment persists and seems to be in a stronger position than a year ago. Even the US is about to drop its demand that Assad has to step down, look at the change in rhetoric in the opening post in this very thread.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/assads-indispensable-foreign-legions-
Assads side is much more reliant on foriegn cash and weaponry (the rebels openly talk of 85-90% weaponry being home made, smuggled in or taken from regieme) and foriegn manpower and technical assistance.
the arms and cash from us and the gulf states pales in comparison to what iran /hezbollah/ iraq / russia etc has given plus they have actualy commited significant boots on the ground

yeah the gulf states and turkish support for the rebels have been minimal right :icon_lol: I'm asking myself why I even bother responding to your repetetive bullshit.

-Yeah its 2015 and things are getting increasingly worse for him

No.

 

[TeTe]

Because, above all, democracy is what the wars on that region brought? :icon_neut

Even better, that's what our tax dollars didn't buy. Compound that with the billions in aid we give out to unstable governments and we've got ourselves a real joke of government.

I don't get these Republicans that full on support this war mongering bullshit that cost exponentially more than what we pay out in social benefits to our own people....that they dog on. You either believe in a small fiscally efficient government, especially on the federal level, or you don't.

 

[whougonnacall]

-
-Except minorities on the rebel side is nowhere to be found.
-If it has become sectarian its because the rebel pushed them there with the "Christians to Beirut and Alawites to the grave" rhetoric since its inception. Sure the goverment favored Alawites in many cases but its nowhere as bad as living in an opressive sunni state.

-This is nothing but your retarded opinion.
- A large majority of middle class secular sunnis and the minorities would rather live under the goverment than the shitty jihadistan the rebels represent.

-I can barely read this horribly written text sorry but there has been some conflict between the Druze community and the goverment. Mainly because they are not getting enough support to fight rebel groups like Al-Nusra that stands on their doorstep and wants their blood.

-Thanks for posting an article from 2012 you idiot.

-No it hasn't, this small skirmish over checkpoints in the city is already over. Status quo again. I wouldn't expect you to know this since you really know jackshit about anything.


-Yawn.... yes yes this rhetoric has been going on for years. He was supposed to have fallen years ago but yet the goverment persists and seems to be in a stronger position than a year ago. Even the US is about to drop its demand that Assad has to step down, look at the change in rhetoric in the opening post in this very thread.

-yeah the gulf states and turkish support for the rebels have been minimal right :icon_lol: I'm asking myself why I even bother responding to your repetetive bullshit.

-No.

- Yeah apart from christian and druze rebels reported

-Yeah dont let reality change you from just firing b.s out like
http://sn4hr.org/wp-content/pdf/english/the_most_massacres_committed_Shiite_militias.pdf
assad made it sectarian first unleasing foriegn sectarian milita as well as home grown alawite shabhia fanatics on people.

-Yeah is just my opinion that assads regieme is one of the most repressive on earth:wink: , do you have a history of inbreeding in your family? actual learning difficulties?
i guess amnesty inernational and human rights watch are just a bunch of drama queens then right?
it was a frigging paradise pre -war in fronks world correct?
Human rights watch even ranked countries based on levels of repression and brutality...guess which one always came 2nd most repressive in the middle east right after S.A? take a wild guess dumbass


-Yeah dumbass im sure they are lol ....let me know when they start lining up round the block to fight for him willingly and not y'know at the point of a gun

-Yes I forgot you have difficulty reading so let me break it down to bite sized portions to spoon feed you
The druze religious leaders have spoke out agaisnt fighting for assad
they have attacked recruitment centres and released press ganged druze and
attacked conscription patrols and beat them
kidnapped a high ranked offical for the release of one of their own community leaders
have small rebel groups
So yeah while not rebelling openly they arent letting their men be pushed into fighting for him either

-yep again problems reading , im sure all the churches assad has bombed and christians locked up since it was published has made everything better

-Yeah the kurds are burying their dead ..im sure they will be more than forgiving , or that they love their former opressors and totaly arent gonna kill every last one of them in their territory once isis is totaly dealt with

-Yeah dont let actual articles from experts based on facts on the ground or anything sway u , just keep ploughing away with the same old b.s

-Minimal compared to support for assad gets from iran russia, iraq and hezbollah
Or did u not understand that part? are you saying our support has been anything in the region of say irans?

- yes

 

[Fronk]

- Yeah apart from christian and druze rebels reported

If they even exist they are not even close to being even slightly significant. You are just spouting your usual bullshit here. Claiming that the christians aren't firmly behind the goverment is just... why do you even bother?

-Yeah dont let reality change you from just firing b.s out like
http://sn4hr.org/wp-content/pdf/english/the_most_massacres_committed_Shiite_militias.pdf
assad made it sectarian first unleasing foriegn sectarian milita as well as home grown alawite shabhia fanatics on people.

No, the sectarian tones of the rebellion was already set when the Iraqi shia militias began coming to Syria. You have the timeline all warped as usual. Thats what happens when you just google up random articles to try to fit your argument over and over again.
The formation of the NDF has also helped in reigning in some lawless pro-goverment groups that carried out sectarian attacks early on. But when then this happened it was already set as a sunni vs everyone else conflict. These kind of attacks has completely stopped from the goverment side. Yet you see rebel offensives targetting alawite and christian civilians, kidnapping of pilgrims and so on to this date.

-Yeah is just my opinion that assads regieme is one of the most repressive on earth:wink: , do you have a history of inbreeding in your family? actual learning difficulties?
i guess amnesty inernational and human rights watch are just a bunch of drama queens then right?
it was a frigging paradise pre -war in fronks world correct?
Human rights watch even ranked countries based on levels of repression and brutality...guess which one always came 2nd most repressive in the middle east right after S.A? take a wild guess dumbass

:icon_lol: oh man these insults...

This is called a strawman. Where did I say Syria was heaven on earth? It's about the rebels and obviously only someone as retarded as you would believe the rebels can offer a better future for minorities in Syria than the goverment.

-Yeah dumbass im sure they are lol ....let me know when they start lining up round the block to fight for him willingly and not y'know at the point of a gun

All this talk about no popular support and yet he is still there. This talk about forcing people by gunpoint is only in your silly little head.

-Yes I forgot you have difficulty reading so let me break it down to bite sized portions to spoon feed you
The druze religious leaders have spoke out agaisnt fighting for assad
they have attacked recruitment centres and released press ganged druze and
attacked conscription patrols and beat them
kidnapped a high ranked offical for the release of one of their own community leaders
have small rebel groups
So yeah while not rebelling openly they arent letting their men be pushed into fighting for him either

Just because they are only somewhat reluctanly siding with the goverment doesn't put them on the rebels side. Can you grasp this simple concept?
Like the kurds they have their own agenda to fulfill because they are concentrated in one area(or well two) that they have a vested interest in defending.
Current rebel intrusion into Suweyda governate are surely going to push them further from ever becoming part of the rebellion.

-yep again problems reading , im sure all the churches assad has bombed and christians locked up since it was published has made everything better

Again :icon_lol: Are you honestly trying to paint the goverment as anti-christian now? You should instead read some articles about actual sectarian opression in rebel held areas. I'm just going to let your arguments stand on their own because they are so dumb there it's no point debating them.

-Yeah the kurds are burying their dead ..im sure they will be more than forgiving , or that they love their former opressors and totaly arent gonna kill every last one of them in their territory once isis is totaly dealt with

Only in your wildest wet fantasies they will. The NDF in the area are made up of local (sunni) arab tribes that has a long history of tensions with kurds. The same with the Assyrians. Its not going to push the kurds into a fullscale war with the goverment.

Yeah dont let actual articles from experts based on facts on the ground or anything sway u , just keep ploughing away with the same old b.s

This is where I counter-argument with the same logical point over and over again right?

-Minimal compared to support for assad gets from iran russia, iraq and hezbollah
Or did u not understand that part? are you saying our support has been anything in the region of say irans?

Proportionally?Tthe goverment still has the responsibility to provide social services for its inhabitants. Its about keeping an entire nation afloat instead of putting money into pockets of people so they fight for your agenda. The rebellion would never have taken off if it didn't have support of Turkey and the Gulf.

 

[whougonnacall]

[

- If they even exist they are not even close to being even slightly significant. You are just spouting your usual bullshit here. Claiming that the christians aren't firmly behind the goverment is just... why do you even bother?

- No, the sectarian tones of the rebellion was already set when the Iraqi shia militias began coming to Syria. You have the timeline all warped as usual. Thats what happens when you just google up random articles to try to fit your argument over and over again.

-The formation of the NDF has also helped in reigning in some lawless pro-goverment groups that carried out sectarian attacks early on. But when then this happened it was already set as a sunni vs everyone else conflict. These kind of attacks has completely stopped from the goverment side. Yet you see rebel offensives targetting alawite and christian civilians, kidnapping of pilgrims and so on to this date.

-:icon_lol: oh man these insults...
This is called a strawman. Where did I say Syria was heaven on earth? It's about the rebels and obviously only someone as retarded as you would believe the rebels can offer a better future for minorities in Syria than the goverment.


-All this talk about no popular support and yet he is still there.

-This talk about forcing people by gunpoint is only in your silly little head.

-Just because they are only somewhat reluctanly siding with the goverment doesn't put them on the rebels side. Can you grasp this simple concept?
Like the kurds they have their own agenda to fulfill because they are concentrated in one area(or well two) that they have a vested interest in defending.
Current rebel intrusion into Suweyda governate are surely going to push them further from ever becoming part of the rebellion.

-Again :icon_lol: Are you honestly trying to paint the goverment as anti-christian now? You should instead read some articles about actual sectarian opression in rebel held areas. I'm just going to let your arguments stand on their own because they are so dumb there it's no point debating them.

-Only in your wildest wet fantasies they will. The NDF in the area are made up of local (sunni) arab tribes that has a long history of tensions with kurds. The same with the Assyrians. Its not going to push the kurds into a fullscale war with the goverment.

-This is where I counter-argument with the same logical point over and over again right?

-Proportionally?Tthe goverment still has the responsibility to provide social services for its inhabitants. Its about keeping an entire nation afloat instead of putting money into pockets of people so they fight for your agenda.
The rebellion would never have taken off if it didn't have support of Turkey and the Gulf.

- Yeah lets pretend they dont exist , ignore the article i posted (i know readings hard for you) and other bits and pieces ...yeah they are 'firmly behind ' him , all of them , im sure we'l see his manpower issues being resolved by thousands of christan sign ups anyday now

-The article clearly states how we saw those foriegn sectarian militas on a small scale from way back early 2011 as well as the domestic sectarian thugs assad unleashed on those protesters.

-By lawless pro goverment groups you mean pro goverment thugs acting as ordered..or are you still clinging to the story that they just happen to show up when the military siezed places and surrounded them, marched past all the checkpoints unnoticed and marched out again after massacres commited ?
Assad isnt the first tyrant to use non unoformed paid irregulars to do his dirty work and he wont be the last
heres one of them literaly telling you about it in graphic detail
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...feared-shabiha-militia-an-insider-speaks.html

and your b.s about the ndf 'reigning it in ' massacres (founded in 2012 with at around 10 snhr documented massacres since then by goverment forces acting with militas)
and it all being one sided ..yeah dont let facts stop you from spouting that shit heres a site that keeps track of the abuses of all sides, note its still overwhelmingly goverment
http://sn4hr.org/


-you said my calling the regime one of the most repressive on earth was just my 'retarded opinion' ...nice to see u patheticaly crawl away from that one lol
The minorities hes been brutaly opressing for years? yeah im sure theyl miss him dearly ...remind me again why they fled rebel held territory with the approach of isis again? arent they all the same?

-Popular support needed for dictatorships now? lol
Im sure dictatorships worldwide will now collapse overnight now fronk assumes tyranny is some sort of popularity contest , im sure that saudi king just died because he wasnt popular enough ...I mean jeez do you even think before you type?
No if he had popular support hed have a giant pool of volunteers not be down to using unreliable conscripts again

-Erm yeah fronk thats what conscription is.......do I have to explain the meaning of words now?

-Strawman much? I never said they were on the rebel side , I pointed out you were again talking shite when you said they were on the goverments side
The druze are on the side of the druze...no one else , that may change if assad pushes conscription more in their areas as they have already demonstrated they will react to that with force.

-Yeah lets pretend theres no +ve rebel christian stuff out there

-Yeah im sure goverment forces will be tolerated after isis is dealt with, the kurds not holding grudges for decades of opression and such

-Yeah by logical point you mean stick your head in the sand and scream 'no manpower problems ' no matter how many military analysts or facts on the ground say otherwise.....general fronk knows better than them

-Even with that taken into account its still not remotely comparable
if we turned off what we give the rebels itd be a huge blow to them but theyd continue , if assads allies turned off their support hed be done in a matter of months

and that last bit u wrote works both ways as assad would be done if not for his allies (not 'popular support' lol)

 

[Fronk]

*barely readable incoherent ramblings*

Skimming through it there are just so many wrongs here, I don't know where to start. It doesn't matter if I painstakingly go through it all, it just flies right by your head.

So lets not derail another thread by having it filled with your shitty wall of texts.

 

[tkotom]

Assad has realized this and is using the ISIS crisis to stay in power.

Not really.

Assad had already crushed the rebels in most places and looked to be keeping power long before ISIS popped their head up in August 2014...

 

[tkotom]

I didn't say he made ISIS. I said he allowed it to flourish.

Pretty sure that was everyone arming these terrorists. If anyone allowed them to flourish it was every nation in the Arabian Peninsula including their allies.

 

[whougonnacall]

Skimming through it there are just so many wrongs here, I don't know where to start. It doesn't matter if I painstakingly go through it all, it just flies right by your head.
So lets not derail another thread by having it filled with your shitty wall of texts.

right back at ya princess

 

[MicroBrew]

" Brzezinski: Assad has more support than any group opposing him."

On C-Span Watch the video.

Brezenziki: I never quite understood why we had to help or atleast endorse the overthrow of Assad. I am not sure why we really knew what we were doing, when we made the statement because it wasn't any real action following on that.

Brezenziki: What has happened in the last 2 years or so since that happened, is the demonstration of the fact that whether we like it or not Assad does have some significant support in Syrian society and probably more than any 1 of the several groups that oppose him.

-

The US knew what it was doing, they supported the Rebels because of pressure primarily from the Gulf Arabs and Turkey and to a lesser extent from Israel. The US just didn't expect Assad to hang on and didn't expect those opposing Assad would primarily be Islamists.

These comments from Brzezinski comes across as 'oops we messed up, oh well,time to call it a day for the Syrian bloodletting[/I]'.