Unfamilar Historical Events

Discussion in 'Mayberry Lounge' started by Pugilistic, Aug 2, 2016.

  1. Pugilistic

    Pugilistic Red Belt

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    I was reading up about Italy during WWII and realized once again, how little I knew about some aspects of history. I learned that Italians in Japan were rounded up by the Japanese Kempeitai and put in concentration camps after Italy surrendered. Had no idea this happened and didn’t know the Japanese had their own version of the Gestapo, although the latter isn’t surprising. I also found out the Germans supplied weapons to the Ethiopians during their war with the Italians, and also to the Chinese nationalists that were eventually used against the Japanese. I also found it amusing that the Portuguese sold supplies to both the Axis and Allies lol. In addition I recently learned the Japanese and the Soviets had a brief conflict in 1939 in which the Soviets under Gen. Zhukov won! Holy shit there was so much stuff I didn’t know.

    I was thinking in this thread we can briefly introduce a historical event that perhaps most posters aren’t familiar with and talk about which areas of history we are curious of but don’t know much of. I’m sure there will be some heated debate over the interpretation of some historical events.

    I’ll start with the Korean war, which was a major conflict but I assume most American poster aren’t that familiar with due it being over shadowed by WWII and Vietnam in their collective memory. My highschool history teacher in the states didn’t even mention Korea when he talked about the Cold War although Vietnam was talked about in length. A lot of people in the States didn’t know of the conflict when I talked about it despite about 34,000 American soldiers having died in combat.

    Of course, in Korea, it’s considered a huge historical event with the repercussions of the war having a direct effect on people to this day, especially since the war isn’t technically over still. Military service is mandatory for men (including yours truly) and you can see tank traps, barbed wire fences, and pillboxes litter the countryside. It’s quite the contrast from the first-world comforts South Koreans live in - eating live octopi notwithstanding - when you see the tools of war right outside the city. It’s a jarring reminder that we are still at war. The history of the war is also a battleground for an ideological conflict between the rightists and leftists, with both sides changing the narrative to fit their current view of the North Korea situation. Some liberal teachers teach students that the US was the one who started the war, despite there being no historical evidence that this was the case. As I’ve mentioned in my Liam Neeson thread, many in the film industry also spin a more sympathetic narrative towards the North Koreans. I’m not a conservative, but I cannot wrap my head around the pro-North Korean attitude of the left here.

    To me, it’s a fascinating war because it was the first major war after WWII involving multiple countries and huge numbers of men. More bombs were dropped by the USAF on this tiny patch of land than during the entirety of the Pacific war. To my knowledge, it was the first time US and Soviet combatants engaged each other directly, in the first jet to jet aerial combat, pitting Sabres against MiGs. The only time Chinese and American forces fought each other in a large scale. Also the first major use of helicopters in combat zones was during this time. The newest American and British tanks of the time also saw their major use here, although the mountainous terrain made them more useful in providing indirect fire support for infantry. It was where the Americans and Soviets could “test” out their new weapons and doctrines in preparation for a potential war with one another. The US even toyed with the idea of using nukes against the Chinese.

    This isn’t widely known but the Japanese were even involved in sending ships to carry supplies and disarm naval mines placed by the North Koreans. More direct Japanese involvement would’ve pissed off a lot of Koreans. The shadow left by the Japanese was felt as part of the reason the North Koreans were so successful in the beginning of the war was because most of Korea’s experienced combat vets from WWII sided with Kim Il-sung, because South Korea was more lenient with Japanese collaborators, keeping many of them in positions of authority after the Japanese surrender. Having Yaks and T34s supplied by the Soviets certainly did not hurt either.

    One common interpretation of the War from westerners I’ve heard is that the Korean War was a civil war, and perhaps the US and UN did not have the right to be involved. In my opinion, this is a misinterpretation served to only villainize the US and its “policing of the world.” North Korea and the South already had two separate governments, constitutions, and militaries two years before the war even started. Not to mention the reason Kim Il-sung felt confident starting the war was because he had backing from Stalin and Mao. Foreign powers were already involved in this “civil” war before the US got involved.

    In short, it’s a fascinating and tragic war, and it’s unfortunate how it barely registers as a blimp in the collective historical memory of Americans. The only Americans in the States I’ve met who knew anything of the war were those who had a family member who served in the war. The War Memorial (basically a museum full of pro-military propaganda) has a wall with all of the names of the American and UN troops who have died during the War, and every time I visit the Memorial, I make a point to pay my respects to the men who have served and gave their lives to this country that wasn’t even theirs. It was a great moment when I took my ex, who was from the States, there so she could find the names of her great uncles who died in the War.

    As far as historical events I don’t know much of but would like to know, I am unfamiliar with the Chinese resistance against the Japanese during WWII. What little I read of it makes it seem it was a clusterfuck of various factions fighting or siding eachother whenever it suited them, and it wasn’t quite as simple as the Nationalists and Communists banding together to fight a common enemy. I also am very curious about what life was like in Switzerland during the World Wars. It’s interesting to imagine the Swiss continuing their normal lives while world wars are erupting right outside their doorstep.
     
  2. loyalyolayal

    loyalyolayal Steel Belt

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    The Kuomintang were just fighting for show during WW2. They were saving the supplies that the US provided for combating Mao. And since the Commies during that time can say with a straight face that they fought the Japanese, people went to the dark side instead of supporting the Nationalists.
     
  3. MadSquabbles500

    MadSquabbles500 Steel Belt

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    they did fight the japanese quite a bit though. They suffered some heavy causualties, but yes Chiang did hold back. Like he refused to use what little modern equipment he had against the Japanese to save for conflict with Mao. Little good it did though. Because the Soviets capture the Kwantung army supply in Manchuria and handed it over to Mao.

    Plus Mao had better PR than Chiang, so all the denizens sided with him. After five more years Chiang had no choice but to flee to Taiwan. Think about what could have been if China had Chiang instead of Mao this whole time.
     
  4. MadSquabbles500

    MadSquabbles500 Steel Belt

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    I knew all that.
     
  5. loyalyolayal

    loyalyolayal Steel Belt

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    Because Mao was all over China. Winning hearts and minds. Promoting the virtues of Communism and fighting the Invaders while the KMT had to rely on foreign aid to even create a dent on the Japanese assault.

    Looking at Taiwan, a LOT less spitting & shitting on the streets.
     
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  6. BisexualMMA

    BisexualMMA Don't Put My Name in the Name of Steroids!

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    After watching Inglourious Basterds, I learned that the Jews fared quite a bit better in WW2 than I had originally thought.
     
  7. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    I'm not sure if its true or unfamiliar, but I've heard Chiang was backed by Triads, and gangsters. Also, those said gangsters were killing commies later on. Guess they didn't take too kindly to big brother trying to take away their stash.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. loyalyolayal

    loyalyolayal Steel Belt

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    Well, the opium trade that was imposed by the brits were facilitated by such groups. I won't be surprised that Mao use this info to gain more support from the countryside fed up by western meddling.
     
  9. the ambush

    the ambush Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    I was interested in The Polar Expedition which involved the northern Russian intervention against invading Germany. I have read countries assisting Russia in the expedition to include America, Britain, France, and even Canada.


    http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/polaread/
     
  10. ralphc1

    ralphc1 Steel Belt Platinum Member

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    Korea was the first war that the American military was forced to fight with one arm tied behind their backs. Truman didn't have the balls to fight a war that could have rid the world of Mao and Stalin. He pulled the US troops out of Korea after WWII which made Stalin believe that the US would allow the communists to take over. Instead he had to send the military in to retake South Korea and set up the US military to be targets as peacekeepers.
     
  11. loyalyolayal

    loyalyolayal Steel Belt

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    Douglas Macarthur was bawse. The cowards in Washington prevented a significant routing of the Communist plague.
     
  12. Jack Reacheround

    Jack Reacheround Never Go Black

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    July 27th, 2016: I took the biggest dump ever in modern history.
     
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  13. Pugilistic

    Pugilistic Red Belt

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    I also learned Hitler was shot up with a million bullets by American special forces.
    I don’t know. I like to imagine what would’ve happened if MacArthur had his way and Korea was united and we wouldn’t have to deal with Kim Jungun’s fat ass in the present. Not risking WWIII was probably a smart move though.
     
  14. FrankensteinMMA

    FrankensteinMMA Sookies boyfriend

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    this is why allot of people dont get mixed up in politics or debate over historical events to justify politics.

    people think they know things and they dont know anything.

    the war room is a good example of misinformation and conlusion jumping going on.

    then you have people who flat out deny things happended lol

    because they read some ALTERNATIVE SOURCE.

    there is no honesty because too many people just want to look for facts im history that ONLY fit their view.

    its good you have an open mind.
     
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  15. Thunderflash500

    Thunderflash500 Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    There was a spartan who was given the highest honor for bravery, and for the same act, given a fine for being foolish. He oiled his body up and ran out to fight the enemy naked. Supposedly some of the enemy thought he was a demi god. The fine he received was for not wearing his armor and foolishly risking his life.

    The Spartans invaded Persia and were doing very well fighting the Persians on their own ground. But Persia paid enemies of Sparta to cause havoc in Greece, which forced the Spartans home.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
  16. PubliusVentidius

    PubliusVentidius Reaching the Ido Portal

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    Hadrian loved architecture and once gave an advice on some construction to Trajan but Apollodorus (Trajan's favorite architect) who was present mocked and ridiculed his advice, when later Hadrian became emperor he had Apollodorus exiled and he was shortly after put to death on dubious charges.
     
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  17. Pugilistic

    Pugilistic Red Belt

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    Even though I don’t know much, I really like history and I really don’t like how it is used to push a political agenda. I only go to the war room for the lulz.

    More and more I realize the study of historiography is way more important than the history itself. The narratives people spin needs more scrutiny and focus when it comes to history education but I realize history classes are actually political weapons. A while back there was big deal made over a mass killing of Korean villagers by American troops during the Korean War but it is likely the event never happened. This is a common rhetoric spewed by the anti-US left but nobody ever really talks about the one huge massacre carried out by the ROK government on alleged communists because it both makes the right look bad, and the left can’t use that fact because it doesn’t fit their anti-US narrative.

    The narrative of the Japanese occupation during WWII is one that is never questioned and we only ever get the simplistic view that Japan was pure evil. If you publicly mention how the Japanese set up a lot of the infrastructure, organized the farmland, educated a lot of the future Korean elite (one of them became president/dictator), introduced standardized education that brought literacy to many of the peasant class and women, and that many of the Korean comfort women were actually sold off by their own parents, you’re putting yourself at risk of being publicly lynched. If you make the slightest hint that Japan wasn’t as evil as the conventional narrative, you’re setting yourself up for death threats and being accused of being a pro-Japanese collaborator.

    People will probably misconstrue my opinion as one of a Jap sympathizer but my point is that history isn’t as simple as “good” or “bad.” I’m even hesitant to judge a guy like Hitler as “bad” because that’s a value judgement but I bet some people will misconstrue that as me being a Nazi-sympathizer. Ironically, many Koreans have a very different perspective of WW2 and the Nazis from Europeans. Many see Hitler as a guy who did many things to make Germany great but did “some bad things” along the way. Many conservatives are openly sympathetic to Hitler because to them, a heavy cost is acceptable as long as it results in a collective “greatness.” My German friend who’s a history teacher in Germany is appalled whenever he hears Koreans talk about Nazi Germany.
     
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  18. Pugilistic

    Pugilistic Red Belt

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    Was this during the Greco-Persian war?


    Speaking of times of antiquity, I’m assuming people know even less of the Japanese Invasion of Korea during the 16th Century. Another fascinating war that involved European fire arms, Chinese and Korean artillery, primitive rocket artillery, grenades, along with spears, samurai swords, and bows. There was also a ship that looked like a turtle. It was larger in scale than any European conflict during the same period. It is widely accepted that the Japanese had the advantage on land, winning most of the major battles, but they were cut off because Korean dominance at sea made it difficult for them to send supplies thanks to the genius of Admiral Lee.

    This also reminded me that I know painfully little of the Napoleonic wars. I just know that Napoleon failed at invading Russia and he lost at Waterloo.
     
  19. FrankensteinMMA

    FrankensteinMMA Sookies boyfriend

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    I remember the turtle ship from age of empires2 lol
     
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  20. Pugilistic

    Pugilistic Red Belt

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    Ha, I remember that as well. That thing was way OP
     

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