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Undisputed Heavyweight Champion

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by Kimura77, Oct 22, 2010.

  1. Kimura77

    Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    Iv heard alot of talk recently(could it be because they just fought recently?)of the Klitchko's vs this and that of the all-time greats,and i was wondering...

    Does anyone here understand what it means to be "Undisputed Champ"?

    Its also known as the "Lineal Championship".........If you do than you probably already know where im going with this..........

    If you dont know(its probably because we dont have one,but ill get to that later)then its ok ill explain:

    In the "Modern Era" it goes.....

    John L. Sullivan
    ^
    James J. Corbett
    ^
    Bob Fitzsimmons
    ^
    James J. Jeffries
    ^
    Marvin Hart
    ^
    Tommy Burns
    ^
    Jack Johnson
    ^
    Jess Willard
    ^
    Jack Dempsey
    ^
    Gene Tunney
    ^
    Max Schmeling
    ^
    Jack Sharkey
    ^
    Primo Carnera
    ^
    Max Baer
    ^
    James J. Braddock
    ^
    Joe Louis
    ^
    Ezzard Charles
    ^
    Jersey Joe Walcott
    ^
    Rocky Marciano
    ^
    Floyd Patterson
    ^
    Ingemar Johansson
    ^
    Floyd Patterson
    ^
    Sonny Liston
    ^
    Muhammad Ali
    ^
    Joe Frazier
    ^
    George Foreman
    ^
    Muhammad Ali
    ^
    Leon Spinks
    ^
    Muhammad Ali
    ^
    Larry Holmes
    ^
    Michael Spinks
    ^
    Mike Tyson
    ^
    James "Buster" Douglas
    ^
    Evander Holyfield
    ^
    Riddick Bowe
    ^
    Evander Holyfield
    ^
    Michael Moorer
    ^
    George Foreman
    ^
    Shannon Briggs
    ^
    Lennox Lewis
    ^
    Hasim Rahman
    ^
    Lennox Lewis

    Now that gets me to my point,we dont have one right now because the #1 and #2 fighters in the world wont fight each other for the reason that they are brothers...
    I understand thats an odd occurrence but we cant penalize our sport by crowning one the "Undisputed Champion" when the difference in ability between the two is only marginal and the gap of talent in the Heavyweight division is so vast...
    That being said if one was to retire and leave the sport than the remaining Klitschko could be recognized as the "Lineal Champion" but until then all we got is two giants beating up on a bunch of scraps,nothing that either of them are doing right now is going to get them into the Hall of Fame...

    As for imaginary matchups...you could put either of the Klitschko's in the ring with any All-Time great that you want and have any outcome that you can think of.......

    But Godzilla still smashes them all......
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  2. TexasDrugAddict**

    TexasDrugAddict** Silver Belt

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    I agree with some of what you are saying but I still think both will get into the hall.

    Here is another take on the Lineal Title.

     
  3. KyleInAction

    KyleInAction ***HOPKINS BELT***

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    Well, the remaining brother would still have to fight Haye for the WBA title, but I don't think anyone is worried about that (except for Haye).

    Besides that, I don't think either of them not having the undisputed championship is going to keep them out of the hall. They'll most likely get in for dominating the hw divisions as long as they have, despite the relative low-quality of opposition.
     
  4. Pirao

    Pirao Banned Banned

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    Linear is not the same as undisputed. And BTW, Wlad is the linear HW champion.
     
  5. amhlilhaus

    amhlilhaus Black Belt

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    an undisputed champion is one who's beaten all the other main title challengers, lineal titles mean nothing, but going a step furthur,

    the last fighter I can remember who was actually the UNDISPUTED heavyweight boxing champion was..................................................................................................

    tom cribb. yes tom cribb. after beating tom molineaux for the second time he was widely acclaimed the best pugilist in england (it was barely practiced in america) and he was not challenged for the rest of his career, until he officialy gave up the title close to 10 years later. now some might say jim jeffries but there was the whole jack johnson thing but the last fighter to have no one with the stones to face him was tom cribb.
     
  6. nip102

    nip102 Purple Belt

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    Undisputed is a pipe dream nowdays the bodies are amazing at findings ways of crowning new champs, some of them even have multiple champs at each weights.the ring champ is the best solution
     
  7. Kimura77

    Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    Here you go.......The Heavyweight Championship Path Of Lineage



    and another one........The Heavyweight Champions of All-Time


    But they too have made their share of mistakes,during the early 90's they completely abandoned their policy leaving the fans to track the "True" heavyweight championship through all the mess and that left alot of the mainstream fans in confusion.Not to mention i like many feel it wasnt right to crown Wladimir Klitschko the champ for defeating Ruslan Chagaev when its obvious that Wladimir and Vitali are clearly the #1 and #2 fighters in their division......makes me wonder what,if any influence Oscar De La Hoya's Golden Boy Enterprises has on their rankings.....



    That depends on what you considered to be "Undisputed",best example is when Tyson collected belts by defeating the likes of Berbick,Smith and Tucker....that to me doesnt make him the "Undisputed" champ.Not until he beat Michael Spinks who was considered the "man to beat"(aka Lineal champ because he beat Holmes 2x before him)

    Heres another take......BBC SPORT | Boxing | He who would be king


    And heres another article on The History Of The Linear Heavyweight Title, And An Accomplishment Achieved By Just Two Men
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  8. nip102

    nip102 Purple Belt

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    i think they were going bankrupt in the 90s,but at least they brought them back.The wlad thing was a bit odd but at the time chagev had beaten better fighters then vitali in his comeback.chagev is wlad best win so far.why would Golden Boy use any of its influence if they had some to crown a rivial promoters main star (K2) as the hw champ.I don't think you could find any prove of golden boy having any influence on the belt.
     
  9. Todd498

    Todd498 Purple Belt

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    Wladimir is the lineal champ right now. The Ring, IBF, WBO, and IBO champion with 9 defences of his IBF strap. I think if he retired right now....with winning gold in Atanta and the titles he has won as a pro, he would get into the Hall of Fame. But he is still going strong and eventually will get to 20 defences imo. When Vitali retires I'm sure he will get the WBC and if Haye grows some balls....Wlad will unify some time in the future.
     
  10. Kimura77

    Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    I not screaming conspiracy,just questioning their motives seeing how its clear that #1 and #2 are vastly superior to the rest and that since they cant fight each other(And i wouldnt expect them to) than we cant clearly crown one as "Undisputed" champ
     
  11. Pirao

    Pirao Banned Banned

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  12. Kimura77

    Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    Heres a definition from Wiki...


    In professional boxing, the lineal championship of a weight class is a notional world championship title. It is initially held at some moment in time by a boxer universally acclaimed as the best in the class


    You can argue that you cant be an "Undisputed Champion" if the "Lineal Champion" is still present......ie the Tyson and Spinks scenario.

    In the case of the Klitschko's,Wladimir cant be recognized as the "Undisputed Heavyweight Champion" of the world because his brother is the obvious #1 contender to that crown(Vitali is the last "Lineal" champ when he beat Sanders who KOed his brother)....

    Anyway this is only a hypothesis that many use on how to see through the fog that has been brought onto us by the many sanctioning bodies.
    You can find this same list in the back of every annual Ring almanac...
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2010
  13. MadMaxPowers

    MadMaxPowers Brown Belt

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    That is a really informative thread.
    I used to watched a lot of boxing with my grandfather, but didn't follow it.
    I watched the Tyson documentary earlier today, then researched the division.
    This site needs more boxing fans like you guys.

    So, as it stands, who is the linear and undisputed champ? and who is likely to succeed and take the belts from the Klitschko's?
     
  14. Prophetic~Poet

    Prophetic~Poet Blue Belt

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    Ring Champion ---------------->
     
  15. MeBig

    MeBig Brown Belt

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    I'll post my reply later, but good contribution TX (seriously).
     
  16. Kimura77

    Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    In the back of the Ring Almanac they show the same lineage but they include the other alphabet titles which i left out,and i have to mention they themselves made the error of discontinuing their version of the Heavyweight championship during the early 90's which i believe left the common fan confused and disinterested....

    And then theirs the crowning of Wladimir....

    I dont agree that they gave the Ring belt to him for defeating Ruslan Chagaev when the only names on Chagaev's resume are John Ruiz and Nikolay Valuev

    Its quite clear that Vitali is not only the obvious #2 contender but hes vastly superior to Chagaev,so when the difference between the #2 and #3 contenders are so vast.....how can they rightfully crown Wladimir the "Ring" champ for defeating Chagaev?

    That type of reasoning is why we despise the other sanctioning bodies to begin with...
     
  17. Kimura77

    Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    Vitali has earned the title when he defeated Corrie Sanders(after Sanders KOed Wladimir) and the Ring confirms this as they awarded him the title after the fight so at that moment he was the "Undisputed Champ".He then defended his crown once and then retired for 4 years....

    He returned in 2008 and defeated Samuel Peter in october,by March 2009 Ring considered him the #2 heavyweight in the world ahead of Ruslan Chagaev(acknowledging the difference in talent between the two) and then they award Wladimir the Ring belt in june after he defeats Chagaev....

    The Rings policy clearly states in the case of a vacant title and i quote

    "There are currently only two ways that a boxer can win The Ring's title: defeat the reigning champion; or win a box-off between the magazine's number-one and number-two rated contenders (or, sometimes, number-one and number-three rated). A vacant Ring championship is filled when the number-one contender in a weight-division battles the number-two contender or the number-three contender (in cases where The Ring determines that the number-two and number-three contenders are close in abilities and records)."

    which in this case Vitali Klitschko and Ruslan Chagaev are nowhere near each other in terms of records or abilities...
     

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