Unbeatable Muscle-Jitsu

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by SummerStriker, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    Imagine clinch fighting with someone with about your build and weight, but more than twice as strong. So strong that you can't move them. Area arm wrestling champ strong - and they know MT and Judo.

    This person, while Thai style clinch fighting, holds your left elbow with their right hand and your left collarbone with their left hand, crossing your centerline.

    They are able to keep you from turning into them with their right elbow, block all right handed shots with the lead arm, and stop your right knee, or at least cut it down, by off balancing.

    Ordinarily, I would deal with something like this by pushing their left elbow with my right hand and go to the back or a standing arm triangle or side body clinch or something. I can't move him at all. He is too strong.

    His move strikes me as muscle-jitsu. I don't think it would work against an equal but it works just fine on me.

    Anyone advise a tactic? Is this a real clich position that I'm ignorant of or did he make it up and he's getting away with it by attributes?
     
  2. Gfreak

    Gfreak Purple Belt

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    Back out of the clinch, and try to go for a low outside shot maybe?

    And if I"m imagining what you're describing correctly then yea it is good control position.
     
  3. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    Well it controlled me alright. But when stuff like this has happened in the past, I've always seen the position as a blessing because it is so easy to get to the side or back.

    I'm fairly surprised by the experience.

    I could just break the clinch and back up, but them I'm not playing along right.
     
  4. hell wall

    hell wall Blue Belt

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    It is not wise to clinch with bigger stronger people,stay on outside and shot for double leg td...set the takedown up with either probing jabs...or light head slaps if its grappling only,once in the 2leg td position transfer from 1 to 2 leg td until one works or use the position to go behind this chaps back and suplex him
     
  5. YellowFury

    YellowFury Blue Belt

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    are you just describing a single collar tie? A picture would be nice.
     
  6. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    [​IMG]

    The position is similar to what the guy in the bottom guard is doing, but no gi and standing. His arm is simply crossing my center line and grabbing my left shoulder or collarbone.
     
  7. Gfreak

    Gfreak Purple Belt

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    OHH, ok I was misunderstanding what you were saying somewhat then.

    This is similar to a greco wrestling position I believe.

    Let's say he has your right elbow with his left arm, and his right arm is on your collar bone. You're going to have to pummel with your right arm to get it on the inside and use either 2 hands to break that other hand's grip on your collar bone. Or, you could also try pummeling inside with your right arm and popping him hard in the shoulder to make him turn, when he turns THEN push on the elbow of the arm that's grabbing your collar bone (now that he's turned sideways some) and use that opportunity to either drop down into a single or double, or go into a body clinch (double unders)
     
  8. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    Thanks. I'll try to work it out with one of my training partners and then try it on the big guy next time I see him. I'll dig into your post before next day I work out.
     
  9. NAKMUAY18

    NAKMUAY18 Brown Belt

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    Punch him with your right hand??
    Clinching and sparring are not two separate acctivitys. If your not wearing gloves open your hand and tap him on the top of the head until he understands that this wouldn't work. If he doesn't get it stop and explain that in real life he'd be eating overhands like birthday cake
     
  10. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    Sounds like a basic side clinch, in which case it is a very strong position. Winding up in that position against someone so strong warrants some Kurt Osiander advice: "You fucked up a long time ago."

    Your focus should be on not letting him grab you.

    If he does, I would try to level change and bodylock him/take his back. If he's about your size you should still be able to pick him up and slam him from there.
     
  11. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    I'm too polite I guess. It isn't my normal place. Obviously you are right, I'm just trying not to break their customs.
     
  12. Gfreak

    Gfreak Purple Belt

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    You really can't throw any strong punches in this position, at all..

    He has your far side arm to him controlled with a tie up grip, and your close side arm really can't get any power in that situation. Also he can just dig his head against yours, and raise his shoulder to protect. It's just not really feasible. You'd have to throw knees, or break out of the clinch before throwing.
     
  13. NAKMUAY18

    NAKMUAY18 Brown Belt

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    If he has both hands on your left arm and shoulder, you can pretty much just smash away with your right. Your not going to KO him, but he's going to change position rather than get repeatedly smashed in the face. With abit of luck he would try to dig his head forward, then you can really do some damage with your elbows.

    If it isn't your normal gym that could be a bit harsh to give him a tap, I'd still probably mention it to him though.
     
  14. Gfreak

    Gfreak Purple Belt

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    The problem is, with that grip he's not going to be standing square in front of you.

    he's going to be controlling, and angling off almost completely to one side from that grip. And when he does that, You're really not going to be able to throw any effective punches until you can make him square back up
     
  15. spunkbun**

    spunkbun** Banned Banned

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    How does he react to you reaching for his neck? I mean, him holding your elbow doesn't stop you from pushing forward does it? And the other hand is free as I understood it? So just take his neck and work the knees?
     
  16. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    So wait. Is he controlling your biceps/overhooking your arm, or is he merely holding the underside of your elbow?
     
  17. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    He is just holding the elbow.

    I can't however, overstate the difference in strength. For example, I can't push down a wall. I don't know if the wall is a few inches of drywall with wood beams or if it has 12 feet of concrete behind it. I only know that I can't move it. That's about what it feels like - pushing a wall.

    If this is a real control position, I'd love to see a video of it being used between equals. Like I said, normally in something like this I'd just push the crossing arm at the elbow and go to their side or back, but I can't make him budge by normal means.
     
  18. Ignoramus

    Ignoramus Orange Belt

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    If someone's stronger AND better than you, it's going to be a long day regardless.

    Play a long distance clinch instead, which is primarily hand fighting, and sneak in elbows and knees.

    If he gets a good over-under or any other type of clinch on you, just break lose and reset. Your game will be rooted in movement versus the stronger guy's game which will be determined by control.

    Guy this is video I posted has a much better clinch than me, and sweeps everyone in our gym:



    I just refused to clinch with him whenever he tried. If you're just clinch sparring, though, that's a different story.
     
  19. Gavster

    Gavster Purple Belt

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    It sounds like you lack torso rotation and core strength? You shouldn't be muscling with your arms.. work on chest openers and closers at the gym and do planks and side planks. I had a gym junkie mate who could hold me as he weighed 25kgs more.. I did those and levelled up! Boss fights became much easier. ;)
     

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