UFC must bring back knees to a grounded opponant!!!

[KingGuerrilla]

Doubtful it's already established. Dana White succeeded in making it mainstream.

If they haven't banned boxing yet I doubt MMA has anything to worry about... do you know how unlikely it was that Muay Thai was ever going to be established in the states?

 

[KingGuerrilla]

Its quite possible. Or change the laws to allow lawsuits from retired fighters more or less forcing just that (driven by NFL and NHL players, but applied across the board to all sports).

I'm pretty sure you can sue a ham sandwich in the United States so it's all about precedence

 

[KingGuerrilla]

If you were involved in MMA from the beginning then you'll know that it was banned in most states, and that the UFC has to follow the rules set by the athletic commissions, which are appointed by politicians who generally only care about votes. There are maybe 2 million American voters who care about MMA (probably less than that going by PPV numbers but lets be optimistic), out of 120 million voters. Meanwhile there are medical groups and a lot of progressive voters who think it's already barbaric and should be banned. If I was a politician I'd say I'm not going to bring in changes that will make a net loss of votes for me -- MMA would not be the hill I'd choose to die on.

Oh yes I am painfully aware because I was under attack every day for my small community center MMA program that never yielded a single serious injury in several decades of operation... I remember the cable ban and all kinds of peripheral issues associated with the sport. we have come a long way since the early days of NHB and now I think it's time we can revisit some of the more ridiculous rules that exist in our sport in particular the "grounded knee"

I have no fantasy about Soccer Kicks and Stomps although I think Soccer Kicks are no big deal personally because we trained and fought that way for many many years without a problem

 

[Dan Torrance]

True, though I think that the UFC will be forced to change in the direction of less rather than more head blows. Even much more popular sports like the NFL (and NHL) are bowing to public (and political pressure) to reduce head blows. Its hard to see how the athletic commissions would buck that trend and allow more head blows into MMA.

the pricks.

In foot ball on any given Sunday there's one Dude who career is fucking over with some fucked up injury. The average fan doesn't even bat a fuckin eyelash they just take it as a piss break while the guy is dragged off the field.

Full contact sports are fucking brutal. That's not the fucked up thing the fucked up thing is pretending like they aren't so we don't feel guilty when we watch it.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

the pricks.

In foot ball on any given Sunday there's one Dude who career is fucking over with some fucked up injury. The average fan doesn't even bat a fuckin eyelash they just take it as a piss break while the guy is dragged off the field.

Full contact sports are fucking brutal. That's not the fucked up thing the fucked up thing is pretending like they aren't so we don't feel guilty when we watch it.

I'm pretty certain every Pro fighter is perfectly aware of the risks they face, whenever I was defending the sport of boxing people would throw Muhammad Ali in my face and I would always remind them that there are plenty of bankers and accountants who had Parkinson's as well but honestly after meeting him late in his life it was difficult for me to accept the fact that boxing probably played a major role in his ultimate fate... trouble is there's lots of athletes like Randall Tex Cobb who took 10 times the beating Ali ever dreamed of yet is as lucid and well-spoken as ever not to mention Ali knockout George Foreman and that bastard is still selling grills to this day!

With modern technology we can easily determine an athlete's health and recommend whether or not they should continue to participate in a sport where you take a beating to the head

I would argue that the definitive nature of the soccer kick is actually more healthy then taking dozens of punches before a referee jumps in and stops a fight

In American MMA a guy gets dropped and then takes dozens of hammer fists before a referee stopped the fight however in soccer kick MMA a guy gets dropped takes one hard blow and the ref stops the fight

We've known for a long time a couple hard blows is much healthier than dozens of slightly less powerful ones

 

[dragonsfly]

It's easy to say I want things for entertainment but you have to consider the fighters life going in there and putting all on the line.. Knees can give them severe brain damages more then striking due to the amount of force it can generate example if you get hold of someone else head in a good position for knee you can do great damage..

Honestly if all of this was fiction I would have added knives etc etc but hey this is real life. There shouldn't be deaths in sport and that is why it is called sport in the first place

 

[KingGuerrilla]

It's easy to say I want things for entertainment but you have to consider the fighters life going in there and putting all on the line.. Knees can give them severe brain damages more then striking due to the amount of force when I can generate with it you someone gets hold of someone else head in a good position of knees.

Honestly if all of this was fiction I would have added knives etc etc but hey this is real life. There shouldn't be deaths in sport and that is why it is called sport in the first place

I think it's a very legitimate debate that one or two heavy strikes is far healthier than dozens and dozens of slightly less powerful ones.

When an athlete is down and getting soccer kicked the referee is going to stop the fight immediately with no argument however in American MMA you can roll over cover up and get pounded on for quite a while

I remember when they dropped the standing eight count in boxing for safety reasons and Muay Thai is now the only sport that still maintains the standard protection count

It's always going to be safer to stop fights the moment an athlete shows any sign of dizziness but that destroys everything we hold dear about Combat Sports... there's absolutely no difference in the concussive impact of a strike whether or not you have a hand or a knee on the ground

It's up to the fighter and or corner to quit if they're really hurt and frankly we live in a country that allows people to jump off of buildings do backflips off mountains, fight bare-knuckle and participate in motorsports that can kill in a nanosecond for nothing more than entertainment so I don't see the big deal about kneeing somebody when they have a hand on the ground!

 

[Dan Torrance]

It's easy to say I want things for entertainment but you have to consider the fighters life going in there and putting all on the line.. Knees can give them severe brain damages more then striking due to the amount of force when I can generate with it you someone gets hold of someone else head in a good position of knees.

Honestly if all of this was fiction I would have added knives etc etc but hey this is real life. There shouldn't be deaths in sport and that is why it is called sport in the first place

Look the movements people use will evolve to the rule. The style will evolve around the rules.

People are always saying that we know what's proven to work but the reality is we know what works based around the unified rules but when you add those knees and or kicks to the grounded opponent it all changes. I say this as someone that trained under those rules. The way the sequences have the ability to flow changes and so does the way people are able to conceive of it.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

Look the movements people use will evolve to the rule. The style will evolve around the rules.

People are always saying that we know what's proven to work but the reality is we know what works based around the unified rules but when you add those knees and or kicks to the grounded opponent it all changes. I say this as someone that trained under those rules. The way the sequences have the ability to flow changes and so does the way people are able to conceive of it.

if you would have told any boxing coach in 1985 that in less then a decade we would have a fighting sport where people could throw flying knees and spinning elbows at at eachother they would laugh you out of the gym.

If you told anyone who was involved with the unified rules that one day we would have bare-knuckle fighting on tv they would laugh you out of the gym

I remember when muay thai was first introduced to the United States, people were freaking out talkin about the body count that was certain to follow and all that precipitated from a terrible Jean Claude Van Damme movie

I don't think popping somebody in the head with a knee while they're trying to take you down is that big a deal compared to a lot of the crap we see in the name of sports it's just what your culturally used to

I used to race dirt bikes as a kid, this is a video that may put things in a perspective most people aren't comfortable with

 

[KingGuerrilla]

next level stragety in the future of mma

 

[SubsmotherLMJVG]

UFC should just commit to doing all their shows outside of North America and then they can have all the grounded knees they want. Problem solved

People don't talk about but look what bellator did when they did fedor vs rampage event. Some of the matches we're held under rizin ff rules.
Rare occasion you see this but it was held in japan it was possible to do so.

 

[COBRA03]

I must have missed the throngs of decapitated bodies from Pride ONE and Vale tudo

Something tells me if royd ragers like the axe murderer and Kevin Randleman couldn't decapitate people with their knees nobody could

Why take the chance though? Isn't the sport brutal enough already? We have been watching the sport for years without that strike, why is it so important to get it back? If that's what you like, that's ok with me though. We all have our own opinions.

 

[SubsmotherLMJVG]

Grounded knees yeah, I don't want stomps and soccer kicks.

Yeah I know Pride and others had it and nothing bad happened, but it would honestly be just a matter of time.

Imagine Ngannou stomping Overeem or soccer kicking semi-folded Stipe....

Remember dream fc allowed knees stomps kicks only when both were down. I can see that in ufc probably the only viable option.

 

[Dan Torrance]

next level stragety in the future of mma

They changed the way the rule is interpreted so if someone starts doing that bullshit the ref doesn't have to call it if they get kneed in the face.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

Remember dream fc allowed knees stomps kicks only when both were down. I can see that in ufc probably the only viable option.

scooting around on the ground is a ridiculous way to allow fighters to behave

It looks ridiculous because it is ridiculous that's why the referee has to jump in there and stand up the contest... in real MMA an opponent would simply soccer kick you in the next week and the referee would stop the fight but instead we have to orchestrate our bouts

 

[KingGuerrilla]

Why take the chance though? Isn't the sport brutal enough already? We have been watching the sport for years without that strike, why is it so important to get it back? If that's what you like, that's ok with me though. We all have our own opinions.

I actually believe it's more brutal to take dozens of slightly less powerful shots than one or two heavy blows because I've actually been there and done that.

The simple fact is when you remove an entire aspect of MMA you substantially change the contest much like when Judo made it illegal to touch your opponent's legs the fact that modern MMA does not allow you to strike a grounded opponent with your legs very much changes the dynamic of the contest

There's absolutely no difference in the concussive impact of a strike depending on the height of which its thrown.

If we're going to let people fight bare-knuckle I think it's pretty ridiculous that we don't allow an athlete to use a strike that's been proven relatively safe in MMA history.

It's my firm opinion that these rules were implemented to Advantage the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling stylists because all of American gyms were producing athletes from one of these two base styles and they were very likely to get decapitated by the nail chewing killers coming out of South America and Asia who were specialists at throwing knees and kicks largely because of their Muay Thai experience and obsession with soccer! Americans were just not any good at using their legs to fight and the UFC wisely wanted American Champions so they could make ten times more money selling swag

 

[moreorless87]

I would argue that the definitive nature of the soccer kick is actually more healthy then taking dozens of punches before a referee jumps in and stops a fight

In American MMA a guy gets dropped and then takes dozens of hammer fists before a referee stopped the fight however in soccer kick MMA a guy gets dropped takes one hard blow and the ref stops the fight

We've known for a long time a couple hard blows is much healthier than dozens of slightly less powerful ones

Yep I can see this arguement, often in Pride you did get situations were the soccer kick wasnt even landed but the threat that it could be was enough to get the ref to step in without any extra punishment.

There is also the issue with shots to the back of the head, under the unifed rules you often basically see fighters using this as a defense, banking than opponents won't attack them but there is always the risk a shot will land and they often do. In Pride this almost never happened because the turtle position left you so vunerable to soccer kicks and knees, I mean really those attacks actually very rarely landed clean in Pride at all because fighters avoided the positions, fell back to open guard when hurt.

Really all these attack are not so much effective offencive weapons as they are deterents to opponents fighting in a certain fashion. Making certain positions dangerous so fighters need to avoid those positions.

 

[KingGuerrilla]

Yep I can see this arguement, often in Pride you did get situations were the soccer kick wasnt even landed but the threat that it could be was enough to get the ref to step in without any extra punishment.

There is also the issue with shots to the back of the head, under the unifed rules you often basically see fighters using this as a defense, banking than opponents won't attack them but there is always the risk a shot will land and they often do. In Pride this almost never happened because the turtle position left you so vunerable to soccer kicks and knees, I mean really those attacks actually very rarely landed clean in Pride at all because fighters avoided the positions, fell back to open guard when hurt.

Really all these attack are not so much effective offencive weapons as they are deterents to opponents fighting in a certain fashion. Making certain positions dangerous so fighters need to avoid those positions.

a perfect description and great assessment of the scenario, in the modern ruleset athletes and coil up in turtle and leave the back of his head exposed knowing that the athlete attacking him has very few options to finish

It's been long understood in fight sports that multiple slightly less powerful blows are much more dangerous than one or two heavy ones.

When you change the dynamic the sport becomes very different as an athlete who would have been stopped by the referee can now Turtle up and try to get his senses back putting him in more danger because the artificial rest he gets is not only difficult to administer for the referee it also extends the beating they would receive

turtle SHOULD be position in which the referee almost always stops the fight because in real MMA or street that would be a position that was simply untenable

 

[moreorless87]

a perfect description and great assessment of the scenario, in the modern ruleset athletes and coil up in turtle and leave the back of his head exposed knowing that the athlete attacking him has very few options to finish

It's been long understood in fight sports that multiple slightly less powerful blows are much more dangerous than one or two heavy ones.

When you change the dynamic the sport becomes very different as an athlete who would have been stopped by the referee can now Turtle up and try to get his senses back putting him in more danger because the artificial rest he gets is not only difficult to administer for the referee it also extends the beating they would receive

turtle SHOULD be position in which the referee almost always stops the fight because in real MMA or street that would be a position that was simply untenable

It does again also mean that opponents are throwing shots very close to the back of the head and some will land on the back of the head, arguably the most dangerous thing in MMA.

I would say as well that with Pride you also need to remember that refs generally allowed fighters to take more punishment, be that these kinds of attacks or just anything. The bad situations with knees like say Sergei/Aleks wasnt just because Aleks could throw knees but because the ref was willing to let him take more of them, you could have knees but a faster stoppage.

 

[Carl25]

But for real at least bring back knees to the head on a grounded opponent... you can't tell me they hit any harder than a jumping knee anyway so what's the damn point?

That is a really good point