UFC: Grapplers not welcome

Sure, most fights are really just sporting events - they have unwritten rules. But you can (and should) just walk away from those fights. I don't consider them important, because there's no need to participate.

Where I live, the fights you can't just walk away from almost always involve weapons and numbers. Even bar fights - they're never one on one (typically half the bar gets involved), and they almost always involve bottles, chairs, and whatever else is at hand. The cops say serious fights (meaning serious injuries) almost always involve weapons/numbers. So do the crime stats. If I'm worried about defending myself and my family, I'm thinking of defending against serious attacks, not ones that can be simply declined.

The point is, no one is denying that learning to fight unarmed isn't great against chest thumping optional fights. But anyone who thinks its the way to go against serious fights (ie your attacker means you serious harm and is not letting you just walk away) is living in an enviably gentle neighborhood.

well of course, but you are oversimplying things, and so is everyone saying you either fight to death or walk away (bringing any type of weapon to the fight has just scalated the conflict to an uncontrollable stage), life isnt just like that, all the way from elementary school through college, you go through a different stages of life, being considered weak could sealed your life till your death, trauma generated in those stages of life is normally going to stick to the end of yours, at that age, lets say teens years and early 20s, when the person is still in the social stage of his life, being able to defend your self and stand on your ground its extremelly important. Walking away from fights or from situations could lead you to be bullied, and the fuck that is a horrible horrible thing to go through, bullying is a world wide thing, not only a US thing (although in the US Ive seen just a whole other level of it). Even if you get beat the fuck up, sometimes its way better to take a good beating than waking away from problems, and it is certanly much better than getting a gun and killing the mother fucker because he was bullying you, I mean, ok you would make your point, hardly anyone is going to bully you for the rest of your life, although I will rather get bully than getting fuck in the ass for the rest of my life in prison.

Fist fighting has been a good way to deal and solve problems since the cave men era, and still is, and will always be, we are human beings, and as rational beings, we can still think and analyse situations, and react accord to them. So if im living in middle of africa where a civil war is going on, or the mexican border, of if the guy thats trying to bully you is the son of a drug lord, of course you aint about to go jiu jitsu on the guy, you either stfu walk away or say good bye to your life. We are talking about rational situations, and those people are not rational people.
 
Last edited:
well of course, but you are oversimplying things, and so is everyone saying you either fight to death or walk away (bringing any type of weapon to the fight has just scalated the conflict to an uncontrollable stage), life isnt just like that, all the way from elementary school through college, you go through a different stages of life, being considered weak could sealed your life till your death, trauma generated in those stages of life is normally going to stick to the end of yours, at that age, lets say teens years and early 20s, when the person is still in the social stage of his life, being able to defend your self and stand on your ground its extremelly important. Walking away from fights or from situations could lead you to be bullied, and the fuck that is a horrible horrible thing to go through, bullying is a world wide thing, not only a US thing (although in the US Ive seen just a whole other level of it). Even if you get beat the fuck up, sometimes its way better to take a good beating than waking away from problems, and it is certanly much better than getting a gun and killing the mother fucker because he was bullying you, I mean, ok you would make your point, hardly anyone is going to bully you for the rest of your life, although I will rather get bully than getting fuck in the ass for the rest of my life in prison.

Fist fighting has been a good way to deal and solve problems since the cave men era, and still is, and will always be, we are human beings, and as rational beings, we can still think and analyse situations, and react accord to them. So if im living in middle of africa where a civil war is going on, or the mexican border, of if the guy thats trying to bully you is the son of a drug lord, of course you aint about to go jiu jitsu on the guy, you either stfu walk away or say good bye to your life. We are talking about rational situations, and those people are not rational people.

Can you bring any sort of anthropological evidence on that claim?

Considering that people actually used their hands to work and the lack of modern medicine i doubt people risked to have the most important tools for survival rendered broken.

Also you still move inside of a frame, a frame that you are defining, bottles and sticks? no, stomps and soccer kicks? yes.

You are nitpicking the rules.
 
Last edited:
Duno what the falcao video is meant to prove... both of them were drunk and one of them literally got hit in the head from behind with a 2by4...

Also you seem to be ignoring a couple of millennia worth of wrestling and boxing competition.
Maybe not marks of being THE toughest guy around but definitely marks of toughness.

1.- Thats the point, they werent gangbangers or druglords, they were regular guys with a 2by4.

2.- Boxing is not that old, it only appeared in extremely developed civilizations like the greeks and then until a few hundred years ago.

3.- Wrestling in which culture again? because im pretty sure that most cultures who had wrestling also had real fighting competitionts, like mounted archery, archery, jousting, dueling etc etc.
 
Can you bring any sort of anthropological evidence on that claim?

Considering that people actually used their hands to work and the lack of modern medicine i doubt people risked to have the most important tools for survival rendered broken.

Also you still move inside of a frame, a frame that you are defining, bottles and sticks? no, stomps and soccer kicks? yes.

You are nitpicking the rules.

Docs who work with their hands do get in fist fights once and a while, not giving a shit about their hands, but you are telling me that cave man gave to thoughts to hit each other because they wouldn't be able to use their tools?
 
This is one fight on TUF.... not the start of a larger trend. Make this thread as fter this sor5 of thing happens 3 more times
 
Docs who work with their hands do get in fist fights once and a while, not giving a shit about their hands, but you are telling me that cave man gave to thoughts to hit each other because they wouldn't be able to use their tools?

Docs dont need to hold spears to avoid getting eaten by a sabretooth tiger.

There is no archeological or anthropological evidence of the such, its more likely they used other methods to avoid intra-tribal conflicts and inter-tribal conflicts while minimal due to the sparse population would had been solved more likely with deadly force as there is evidence of assasinated primitive men.

And even if they did, it would be assumed by comparison to modern hunter-gatherer societies that such conflicts would be solved in ritualized combat which involves rules.
 
well of course, but you are oversimplying things, and so is everyone saying you either fight to death or walk away (bringing any type of weapon to the fight has just scalated the conflict to an uncontrollable stage), life isnt just like that, all the way from elementary school through college, you go through a different stages of life, being considered weak could sealed your life till your death, trauma generated in those stages of life is normally going to stick to the end of yours, at that age, lets say teens years and early 20s, when the person is still in the social stage of his life, being able to defend your self and stand on your ground its extremelly important. Walking away from fights or from situations could lead you to be bullied, and the fuck that is a horrible horrible thing to go through, bullying is a world wide thing, not only a US thing (although in the US Ive seen just a whole other level of it). Even if you get beat the fuck up, sometimes its way better to take a good beating than waking away from problems, and it is certanly much better than getting a gun and killing the mother fucker because he was bullying you, I mean, ok you would make your point, hardly anyone is going to bully you for the rest of your life, although I will rather get bully than getting fuck in the ass for the rest of my life in prison.

Fair enough, I'm thinking like the middle aged guy I am, where the only fight I'm going to get into is someone (group thereof) trying to mug me. I will (however reluctantly) concede that I got into a fair amount of fist fights in elementary and high school (not college - by then that didn't happen, though there were a couple of incidents involving weapons), and my reaction wasn't to turn and walk away, and I wouldn't advocate it under those circumstances in any case (as you say, you're developing your standing).

Fist fighting for kids isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, just about any style of fighting (boxing, karate, BJJ, judo, TKD) is going to work in elementary school, and probably even high school, because its mainly about standing your ground anyway, not about winning. My experience of school fights is what gains standing is not necessarily winning, but being willing to fight well enough to return damage, and continuing to fight whether you're winning or losing. Most kids who put up a decent fight gain respect and are left alone (unless of course its gang related, but in that case its not likely to be a fist fight in the first place).

Making sure you win/don't get hurt comes into play in the more serious fights, and those aren't, as I've said, typically one on one fist fights.
 
Fair enough, I'm thinking like the middle aged guy I am, where the only fight I'm going to get into is someone (group thereof) trying to mug me. I will (however reluctantly) concede that I got into a fair amount of fist fights in elementary and high school (not college - by then that didn't happen, though there were a couple of incidents involving weapons), and my reaction wasn't to turn and walk away, and I wouldn't advocate it under those circumstances in any case (as you say, you're developing your standing).

Fist fighting for kids isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, just about any style of fighting (boxing, karate, BJJ, judo, TKD) is going to work in elementary school, and probably even high school, because its mainly about standing your ground anyway, not about winning. My experience of school fights is what gains standing is not necessarily winning, but being willing to fight well enough to return damage, and continuing to fight whether you're winning or losing. Most kids who put up a decent fight gain respect and are left alone (unless of course its gang related, but in that case its not likely to be a fist fight in the first place).

Making sure you win/don't get hurt comes into play in the more serious fights, and those aren't, as I've said, typically one on one fist fights.

I agree with you in almost but the styles you mentioned, Im sure bjj judo will give a very big advantage in a 1 vs 1 fight, I dont believe neither tkd or karate will, I was a tkd black belt by the time I hit 14 years old, also did sipalki do and karate do... Ive never ever felt secure, and when I used to get in fights, I certanly wouldnt start throwing crazy kicks. Size and strenght (and as you said, the correct mindset) play a huge factor, you can be very good at kicking, but most probable scenario if you are smaller one the big kid will likely clinch (not a technical one) and throw you to the ground, I believe though, any grappling style will give a very very big advantage to one person over the other (as long as you have at least a critical muscle mass enough to hurt the other person and overall you are not a nerd, I dont believe in ninjas so Im not thinink in a 250 football player vs a 125 nerdy blue belt)
 
Docs dont need to hold spears to avoid getting eaten by a sabretooth tiger.

There is no archeological or anthropological evidence of the such, its more likely they used other methods to avoid intra-tribal conflicts and inter-tribal conflicts while minimal due to the sparse population would had been solved more likely with deadly force as there is evidence of assasinated primitive men.

And even if they did, it would be assumed by comparison to modern hunter-gatherer societies that such conflicts would be solved in ritualized combat which involves rules.

surgeons use their hand to feed their family.
 
1.- Thats the point, they werent gangbangers or druglords, they were regular guys with a 2by4.

2.- Boxing is not that old, it only appeared in extremely developed civilizations like the greeks and then until a few hundred years ago.

3.- Wrestling in which culture again? because im pretty sure that most cultures who had wrestling also had real fighting competitionts, like mounted archery, archery, jousting, dueling etc etc.

I dont really get what is being argued in one (must have missed something somewhere) so I'm gonna drop it.

2. So at a minimum boxing has been a mark of toughness for at least the past few hundred years then? I'd say that's quite a long time.

3. I hardly think 99.9% of the population had access to those things you mentioned...
 
I agree with you in almost but the styles you mentioned, Im sure bjj judo will give a very big advantage in a 1 vs 1 fight, I dont believe neither tkd or karate will, I was a tkd black belt by the time I hit 14 years old, also did sipalki do and karate do... Ive never ever felt secure, and when I used to get in fights, I certanly wouldnt start throwing crazy kicks. Size and strenght (and as you said, the correct mindset) play a huge factor, you can be very good at kicking, but most probable scenario if you are smaller one the big kid will likely clinch (not a technical one) and throw you to the ground, I believe though, any grappling style will give a very very big advantage to one person over the other (as long as you have at least a critical muscle mass enough to hurt the other person and overall you are not a nerd, I dont believe in ninjas so Im not thinink in a 250 football player vs a 125 nerdy blue belt)

I'll take your word that karate and TKD don't help - I've done neither. Still I'm kind of surprised; for school fist fights they don't necessarily have to technically useful, they just have to toughen you up physically and mentally, because most often you don't have to win, you just have to show fight ...

I'm think of thinks like the rugby team in high school. The guys playing that didn't get picked on much (if at all), because even if they didn't know how to fight, they were tough and didn't mind getting hurt so long as they got their licks in. Yes, some were big enough that no one would pick on them, but some were pretty small and still were left alone after the inevitable first encounters when six elementary schools graduating classes merged into a single high school.

Or hockey (I'm Canadian). Most hockey players back in the day knew nothing about fighting (except maybe on skates - i suspect your average NHL enforcer would beat Cain in a hockey fight - in fact I doubt Cain could even stand up on skates), but they were tough and ready to fight, so no one went after them. Admittedly hockey is the sport that attracts almost all of the best athletes in Canada, and bullying strong athletic kids isn't particularly common, but its still about toughness, not fighting skills. (BTW in Canada for the most part you only do other sports if you're not excellent at hockey - for instance GSP played hockey as a kid but eventually chose karate because his parents couldn't afford both and he wasn't a standout in hockey (standouts don't have to pay anything, typically people will sponsor them).

School yard fist fights tend to be about never giving up, and doing enough damage in the process that you're not worth the bother of fighting again. I'd have guessed that karate and TKD would lead to some of that spirit.
 
Last edited:
I'll take your word that karate and TKD don't help - I've done neither. Still I'm kind of surprised; for school fist fights they don't necessarily have to technically useful, they just have to toughen you up physically and mentally, because most often you don't have to win, you just have to show fight ...

I'm think of thinks like the rugby team in high school. The guys playing that didn't get picked on much (if at all), because even if they didn't know how to fight, they were tough and didn't mind getting hurt so long as they got their licks in. Yes, some were big enough that no one would pick on them, but some were pretty small and still were left alone after the inevitable first encounters when six elementary schools graduating classes merged into a single high school.

Or hockey (I'm Canadian). Most hockey players back in the day knew nothing about fighting (except maybe on skates - i suspect your average NHL enforcer would beat Cain in a hockey fight - in fact I doubt Cain could even stand up on skates), but they were tough and ready to fight, so no one went after them. Admittedly hockey is the sport that attracts almost all of the best athletes in Canada, and bullying strong athletic kids isn't particularly common, but its still about toughness, not fighting skills. (BTW in Canada for the most part you only do other sports if you're not excellent at hockey - for instance GSP played hockey as a kid but eventually chose karate because his parents couldn't afford both and he wasn't a standout in hockey (standouts don't have to pay anything, typically people will sponsor them).

School yard fist fights tend to be about never giving up, and doing enough damage in the process that you're not worth the bother of fighting again. I'd have guessed that karate and TKD would lead to some of that spirit.

It depends on the TKD and Karate schools and wether they compete or not, i knew karate BBs who were bullied a lot, karate BBs who didnt and karate BBs who were bullies themselves.

Also there were 2 karate old schools that had a sort of gang war and went and picked fights with each other members.
 
I'll take your word that karate and TKD don't help - I've done neither. Still I'm kind of surprised; for school fist fights they don't necessarily have to technically useful, they just have to toughen you up physically and mentally, because most often you don't have to win, you just have to show fight ...

I'm think of thinks like the rugby team in high school. The guys playing that didn't get picked on much (if at all), because even if they didn't know how to fight, they were tough and didn't mind getting hurt so long as they got their licks in. Yes, some were big enough that no one would pick on them, but some were pretty small and still were left alone after the inevitable first encounters when six elementary schools graduating classes merged into a single high school.

Or hockey (I'm Canadian). Most hockey players back in the day knew nothing about fighting (except maybe on skates - i suspect your average NHL enforcer would beat Cain in a hockey fight - in fact I doubt Cain could even stand up on skates), but they were tough and ready to fight, so no one went after them. Admittedly hockey is the sport that attracts almost all of the best athletes in Canada, and bullying strong athletic kids isn't particularly common, but its still about toughness, not fighting skills. (BTW in Canada for the most part you only do other sports if you're not excellent at hockey - for instance GSP played hockey as a kid but eventually chose karate because his parents couldn't afford both and he wasn't a standout in hockey (standouts don't have to pay anything, typically people will sponsor them).

School yard fist fights tend to be about never giving up, and doing enough damage in the process that you're not worth the bother of fighting again. I'd have guessed that karate and TKD would lead to some of that spirit.

pretty much.... I played rugby too, not for long, very short period, back in my teens, but had a bunch of classmates and friends that did it for a long time, some guys eventhough didnt know how to fight, got into so many fist fights that myth around them were created, rugby type sports makes you tough, mentally and physically, so it doesnt matter if you know or not how to fight, you can be sure that the one playing is some tough mother fucker, and that crazy mother fucker knows how to perform tackle...

School yard fist fights tend to be about never giving up, and doing enough damage in the process that you're not worth the bother of fighting again. I'd have guessed that karate and TKD would lead to some of that spirit.

I agree, unless one kid is a grappler and puts the other kid to sleep...

most karate and tkd schools are a bunch of larpers, living in ninja land...you will eventually find tough guys in any of those arts, but unless they are competing strongly in fullcontact competitions or are some kind of miracle natural born fighter, Ill put my money any day of the week on a tough rugby player over a tkd black belt, even if physical attributes are the same... Im sure someone is very used to get hit A LOT, the other one im sure pretends to hit and get hit a lot... big difference.
 
And they should allow steel pipes, shanks and sidekicks entering from backstage to join the fight when you are losing. Because realism.

stop being a pansy...most of the things he named would actually BENEFIT grappers. only thing id exclude would be back of the head/spine shots.

guys couldnt just hang out on bottom in N/S or side control anymore or keep their finger tips down on the ground. conversely, strikers could make grapplers pay on missed TD attempts and also upkick grounded guys that were above them in top control.

1036584-7M0VFAL.gif


enough of all the added rules diluting this great sport. all the crybabies in the heavies are already calling for oblique kicks to be banned when nobody can even show a serious knee injury from them. dont even mention Rampage, Shogun, Jardine or Barry because its already been refuted.

I've seen countless fights finish from people being back mounted and flattened out... If someone NEEDS to hit the back of the head to finish from that position, they must be missing the part where they are in complete control of the opponent.

seemed to work for my man, Vitor. be a thermostat...not a thermometer!

105nse9.gif


10001948.gif
 
Way too many pages to read through but off the too of my head : Maia, Jacare, BJ Penn, vinny magalhaes....
 
Well, the UFC is a business and Submission Grappling doesn't appeal to the public as well as HAYMAKER, ELBOW, JUST BLEED.

Sad but true. I think anything that looks/feels like traditional grappling has lost it's place in the octagon. It was only ever exciting for grapplers to watch. As the game eveolved, no one really submits much from the guard anymore. On the top, people have ALWAYS botched about Fitch, Koscheck, etc. No one has ever loved that style.

Not to say that there is no place for submissions anymore, two people that come to mind are Cerrone and Rockhold - they just don't get into "grappling" fights. Great finishers, though.
 
Back
Top