International U.S. and Afghan Forces Killed More Civilians Than Taliban Did, Report Finds

[Fazz]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/24/world/asia/afghanistan-civilian-casualties-united-nations.html

KABUL, Afghanistan — For the first time since the United Nations began documenting civilian casualties in Afghanistan a decade ago, more civilians are being killed by Afghan government and American forces than by the Taliban and other insurgents, according to a report on Wednesday.

Civilian deaths attributed to pro-government forces rose in the first quarter of this year even as overall civilian casualties dropped to their lowest level in that period since 2013.

————————————————

Figures are from the UN and for 2019 only.

 

[Sano]

I was actually just about to post this earlier.

Another recent finding from Amnesty highlighted that over 1.600 civilians were killed as a result of the US-led coalition against Raqqa in Syria.

"A newly released report charges that the US-led coalition killed more than 1,600 civilians in Raqqa over the course of several months in 2017 during its campaign to eradicate ISIS from the Syrian city.

Report: US-led coalition killed 1,600 civilians in Raqqa in 2017
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/25/politics/amnesty-international-report-raqqa/index.html
"A newly released report charges that the US-led coalition killed more than 1,600 civilians in Raqqa over the course of several months in 2017 during its campaign to eradicate ISIS from the Syrian city.

The report, released Thursday by Amnesty International and Airwars, found that US, UK and French airstrikes and US artillery strikes killed or injured thousands of civilians from June to October 2017.
A coalition analysis of civilian casualties does not match the report's findings.
"Many of the cases documented by Amnesty International likely amount to violations of international humanitarian law and warrant further investigation," the report states."

https://raqqa.amnesty.org/
As per the Anmnesty report, the coalition fired 30.000 artillery shells during a period of 5 months, which is more than any other battalion since the Vietnam war. They fired indiscriminately, targeting entire neighborhoods. All this while the following sentiments were given to the public:

"I challenge anyone to find a more precise air campaign in the history of warfare…The Coalition's goal is always for zero human casualties" - Former Defence Secretary" - General James Mattis

More from the report:
"The Coalition launched strikes likely to cause excessive harm to civilians and failed to distinguish between military targets and civilians.

Such conduct violates the principles of distinction and proportionality - fundamental requirements of international humanitarian law. Disproportionate or indiscriminate attacks are war crimes.

Urban combat poses inherent challenges. These were exacerbated in Raqqa because IS used human shields, but the Coalition was well aware of these tactics long before the battle.

During its offensive, the Coalition failed to take into account that civilians were present in every neighbourhood. Had Coalition forces carried out adequate surveillance before launching their strikes many civilian lives could have been spared."

Where is the outcry for this? In line with the arguments made in the Sri Lanka thread.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Remember, when you join the US military you are not defending freedom and doing something heroic. You are joining a terrorist organization.

9-11 was almost 20yrs ago...

 

[ShadowRun]

Remove Afghan forces and let’s see the numbers ...

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Well, yes. We dropped bombs.

Kinda hard to do much when the enemy hides among civilians.
Of course, as soon as they learn we won't bomb them because they hide with civilians (many of whom shelter them), they'll do it that much more.

It's a shame, but it's also a shame that the people in these countries don't do anything about the garbage that lives among them.

 

[Confucamus]

This idea that the U.S. indiscriminately drops bombs regardless of the risk of human casualties is a tiresome and stupid talking point. If the U.S. truly didn't care about civilian casualties, then the war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria would've been over in about a week. The most powerful military force in Earth's history wouldn't be bogged down for 15 years in a war against people with few tanks and no planes.

Civilian casualties are horrible. I've seen the videos and the pictures and I can't even imagine that world. I feel so blessed to live in America. War is hell. Civilian casualties are part of it. No, that doesn't make it acceptable but you are dealing with people who *use civilians as human shields* for Christ's sake. They don't have tanks and planes. What they do have is a disregard for human life. They know the building they're in will get blown to pieces so they pack it with women and children to get blown to pieces too. In this day and age, with a media that is all too eager to trash the military, they have their effective propaganda.

No, the U.S. does not indiscriminately bomb civilians. I believe they do as much surveillance as possible but they can only do so much. They are not dealing with an enemy that follows any rules, has any accountability, or obeys the Geneva convention. It's just plain ugly. If there's one thing that really sold me on Obama back in 2008, early in the Democratic primary the candidates were asked if they would authorize a strike despite knowing there may be civilian casualties. Obama reluctantly, but surely, raised his hand. That was a fucking ballsy ass thing to do and I respect him for that.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

This idea that the U.S. indiscriminately drops bombs regardless of the risk of human casualties is a tiresome and stupid talking point. If the U.S. truly didn't care about civilian casualties, then the war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria would've been over in about a week. The most powerful military force in Earth's history wouldn't be bogged down for 15 years in a war against people with few tanks and no planes.

Civilian casualties are horrible. I've seen the videos and the pictures and I can't even imagine that world. I feel so blessed to live in America. War is hell. Civilian casualties are part of it. No, that doesn't make it acceptable but you are dealing with people who *use civilians as human shields* for Christ's sake. They don't have tanks and planes. What they do have is a disregard for human life. They know the building they're in will get blown to pieces so they pack it with women and children to get blown to pieces too. In this day and age, with a media that is all too eager to trash the military, they have their effective propaganda.

No, the U.S. does not indiscriminately bomb civilians. I believe they do as much surveillance as possible but they can only do so much. They are not dealing with an enemy that follows any rules, has any accountability, or obeys the Geneva convention. It's just plain ugly. If there's one thing that really sold me on Obama back in 2008, early in the Democratic primary the candidates were asked if they would authorize a strike despite knowing there may be civilian casualties. Obama reluctantly, but surely, raised his hand. That was a fucking ballsy ass thing to do and I respect him for that.

Isn't it also a shame that these countries raise, shelter and export evil extremists to the world

 

[TheComebackKid]

Well, yes. We dropped bombs.

Kinda hard to do much when the enemy hides among civilians.
Of course, as soon as they learn we won't bomb them because they hide with civilians (many of whom shelter them), they'll do it that much more.

It's a shame, but it's also a shame that the people in these countries don't do anything about the garbage that lives among them.

Yes, yes...The perpetual boogeyman. If we weren't there dropping bombs and killing civilians everyday then terrorists with box cutters will be sure to crawl out of their caves and begin terrorizing cities all across America. We must stay. We must drop bombs. If we love freedom we can never leave.

 

[TheComebackKid]

This idea that the U.S. indiscriminately drops bombs regardless of the risk of human casualties is a tiresome and stupid talking point.

Who says that? All anyone says is that America drops bombs and kills civilians...more civilians than the actual terrorists. Those arent talking points...those are facts. Some of you are ok with that reality and some of us arent.

 

[Confucamus]

Isn't it also a shame that these countries raise, shelter and export evil extremists to the world

It's sad and frightening. They're teaching 8 year olds how to behead somebody.

 

[Confucamus]

Who says that? All anyone says is that America drops bombs and kills civilians...more civilians than the actual terrorists. Those arent talking points...those are facts. Some of you are ok with that reality and some of us arent.

Curious as to how they discern who is a civilian and who is an enemy combatant. In guerilla warfare, that is VERY difficult to discern and often times there is no difference. Again, literally NOBODY is okay with civilians being killed.

Remember, when you join the US military you are not defending freedom and doing something heroic. You are joining a terrorist organization.

9-11 was almost 20yrs ago...

Yes, yes...The perpetual boogeyman. If we weren't there dropping bombs and killing civilians everyday then terrorists with box cutters will be sure to crawl out of their caves and begin terrorizing cities all across America. We must stay. We must drop bombs. If we love freedom we can never leave.

Oh, fuck off.

 

[Sano]

This idea that the U.S. indiscriminately drops bombs regardless of the risk of human casualties is a tiresome and stupid talking point. If the U.S. truly didn't care about civilian casualties, then the war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria would've been over in about a week. The most powerful military force in Earth's history wouldn't be bogged down for 15 years in a war against people with few tanks and no planes.

Civilian casualties are horrible. I've seen the videos and the pictures and I can't even imagine that world. I feel so blessed to live in America. War is hell. Civilian casualties are part of it. No, that doesn't make it acceptable but you are dealing with people who *use civilians as human shields* for Christ's sake. They don't have tanks and planes. What they do have is a disregard for human life. They know the building they're in will get blown to pieces so they pack it with women and children to get blown to pieces too. In this day and age, with a media that is all too eager to trash the military, they have their effective propaganda.

No, the U.S. does not indiscriminately bomb civilians. I believe they do as much surveillance as possible but they can only do so much. They are not dealing with an enemy that follows any rules, has any accountability, or obeys the Geneva convention. It's just plain ugly. If there's one thing that really sold me on Obama back in 2008, early in the Democratic primary the candidates were asked if they would authorize a strike despite knowing there may be civilian casualties. Obama reluctantly, but surely, raised his hand. That was a fucking ballsy ass thing to do and I respect him for that.

That's the problem. There are specific instances where they clearly DIDN'T use the surveillance necessary, either for political or strategical reasons, as laid out in the reports. You're being completely naive.

Yes, the US certainly "tries" to not kill "too many" but they have still committed countless of war crimes, directly started illegal wars, are actively bombing like 7 countries, overthrown governments, trained taliban, armed terrorists groups, support the Saudis, assassinated leaders, destabilised entire countries and nations the list goes on. How is it, that NO ONE takes responsibility for this? Apparently anything can be used to justify the destruction of childrens lives and families homes, as long as you're the one doing it. But as soon as the tables are turned, there's no end you wont go to for vengeance.

The whole "we're the goodguys" notion is complete bullshit.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

It's sad and frightening. They're teaching 8 year olds how to behead somebody.

The year after 9/11, the most popular name for a newborn boy in Afghanistan was Osama.

These countries aren't free of responsibility for their own. Export terror and chaos, import corrective measures you'll bitch about for decades.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Curious as to how they discern who is a civilian and who is an enemy combatant. In guerilla warfare, that is VERY difficult to discern and often times there is no difference. Again, literally NOBODY is okay with civilians being killed.

Oh, fuck off.

It's been 20 yrs of guerilla warfare and killing civilians. How long do you think we should keep this going?

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

That's the problem. There are specific instances where they clearly DIDN'T use the surveillance necessary either for political or strategical reasons, as laid out in the reports. You're being completely naive.

Yes, the US certainly "tries" to not kill "too many" but they have still commtted countless of war crimes, directly started illegal wars, are actively bombing like 7 countries, overthrown governments, trained taliban, armed terrorists groups, support the Saudias, assinated leaders, destabilised entire countries the list goes on. How is it, that NO ONE takes responsibility for this?

The whole "we're the goodguy" notion is complete bullshit.

They could have killed UBL once with pretty high confidence, from a precision strike. At the last moment, analysts noticed some playground equipment, there were children in the terrorist encampment.
It was called off for that reason.
The most wanted man in the world, and they didn't just red-mist him without consideration.

 

[Sano]

They could have killed UBL once with pretty high confidence, from a precision strike. At the last moment, analysts noticed some playground equipment, there were children in the terrorist encampment.
It was called off for that reason.
The most wanted man in the world, and they didn't just red-mist him without consideration.

That's good to hear, if true. That doesn't dispute anything I've said at all, nor excuse anything else.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

That's good to hear, if true. That doesn't dispute anything I've said at all, nor excuse anything else.

I see both sides of the issue, but favor the side that isn't creating terrorists to fuck up my country.

 

[berimBOWLoh]

They could have killed UBL once with pretty high confidence, from a precision strike. At the last moment, analysts noticed some playground equipment, there were children in the terrorist encampment.
It was called off for that reason.
The most wanted man in the world, and they didn't just red-mist him without consideration.

That’s pretty dumb and probably not true. If it is it’s the dumbest shit ever. They killed way more women and children since

The way you talk I bet you think Vietnam was hunky dory too. Like America hasn’t done way more damage than since cave dwelling idiots could ever do

 

[berimBOWLoh]

I see both sides of the issue, but favor the side that isn't creating terrorists to fuck up my country.

So how would you feel if you were invaddd and occupied while being told your way of life isn’t proper and you need to follow the ways of your invaders?? Bet you would line up to support that eh

 

[TheComebackKid]

So how would you feel if you were invaddd and occupied while being told your way of life isn’t proper and you need to follow the ways of your invaders?? Bet you would line up to support that eh

None of these freedom bombers will answer that