turtle

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by almann1979, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. almann1979

    almann1979 Orange Belt

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, what are my go to attacks when the opponent turtles?

    I spent nearly 5 minutes rolling today against somebody practicing turtle and couldnt break them down. I have looked on YouTube, but what I see are techniques that seem a bit advanced/fancy for me.

    What are the basic attacking turtle priorities ?
     
  2. Burke72

    Burke72 White Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    2
    Spiral ride, when opponent falls to his side you have a split second where his near side elbow comes away from his body. This is the opportunity to harness his back and chair sit to back. Hard to stop even if you know it's coming.

    Edit: Also Clock choke can be a sneaky, and sometimes necessary, submission from here when spiraling.
     
  3. snakeybizz

    snakeybizz Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,504
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    England
    basic attacks?...guillotine, anaconda, d'arce and hooks in for a back take are the basic attacking options i'd say
     
  4. Judo Thai Boxer

    Judo Thai Boxer <img src="http://www.mediafire.com/download/kjmldl

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    6,894
    Likes Received:
    44
    Location:
    UK
    Assuming turtle is the same in BJJ as judo I like to get the back, but since I can't get my hooks in, I pull up on the belt which breaks them up enough to get a hook in and grab an arm or lapel to bring them so they're facing the ceiling/forward and I get my other hook in during the transition.
     
  5. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,601
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Down from day 1
    This may not be popular here, but attack it with wrestling Nelsons, ankle picks, wrist control (2-on-1, roll the wrists, ball and chain).

    Put your opponents nose in the mat and break them down hard, then turn them with the half Nelson with a chin strap.

    You can find all this on YouTube


    Also a more BJJ centic attack is to remember Turtle is weak if you pull at it backwards at a 45 degree angle. Also just get a badass grip on the belt, stand up and pick your opponent up.
     
  6. almann1979

    almann1979 Orange Belt

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you all. One last question, if your opponent insists on staying in turtle, should it be a given you will sweep\ turn him over under bjj rules? Or is it actually always going to be very hard?
     
  7. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    18,558
    Likes Received:
    4,074
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    It can be very, very hard. The problem with turtle in BJJ that doesn't exist in wrestling is that the bottom guy isn't trying to stand up or face you, he's usually just trying to recover guard and it's very hard to attack him while preventing the guard recovery. Just watch any Eduardo Telles fight if you want examples.

    Attacking the turtle is hard, the key is patience. Usually the bottom guy is waiting for the top guy to overcommit so he can either roll him or turn under to recover guard. Don't reach deep under his armpit across his body, try to keep your shin over the top of his ankles (to prevent rolling leg attacks), and look to break him down. Spiral ride are a good option, Saulo Ribeiro also has some really good turtle attacking stuff but you have to belong to his site.

    Without the gi, your options open up a bit, and all manner of front headlock attacks come into play as viable options. Darces, anacondas, etc.

    One other thing, you could look into the crucifix. It's a position not everyone likes, but some people are deadly with the crucifix against turtled opponents. Marcelo mostly, though Barret Yoshida also has a wicked crucifix game.
     
  8. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,601
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Down from day 1

    Great advice! I think he was talking about attack a guy in turtle who just stalls there, not looking to regard but just staying there defending.
     
  9. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Messages:
    32,493
    Likes Received:
    552
    Location:
    NY
    Really depends on your objectives. A lot of the advice in this thread has to do with turn-overs. Great for wrestling, great for Judo, good for MMA if the technique doesn't require a gi. Often useless in sport BJJ for point scoring purposes.

    Nelsons, rides, break-downs, all are good for controlling someone and turning them over. If that is part of your objective then these are solid options. If you're asking for advice for a sport BJJ match, you want to get the hooks in or submit. Uchi Mata's advice is on point.
     
  10. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,601
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Down from day 1
    Top side control is now disvantageous?
     
  11. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    18,558
    Likes Received:
    4,074
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    If you can get to side control sure they're good, the problem is that most of those techniques provide space for the bottom guy to re-guard. If you're in a wrestling match that's fine since guard doesn't exist and now you're just giving up back exposure, but in BJJ it means you have to pass guard again. But I do think some rides can be useful, and I use spiral rides to safely break guys down all the time. If you're talking MMA, I think rides become very, very strong techniques due to the control they afford while also allowing for striking.

    On a related note, anyone get Josh Barnett's Punishing Rides DVD? I've always wondered if it was any good.
     
  12. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Messages:
    32,493
    Likes Received:
    552
    Location:
    NY
    In a BJJ match where turning someone from turtle to side control scores no points, it's not advantageous. It's not disadvantageous, but it's not advantageous either.
     
  13. snakeybizz

    snakeybizz Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,504
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    England
    and its not disadvantageous, or advantageous


    ...

    ...

    ...

    or disadvantageous
     
  14. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,601
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Down from day 1
    lol, being in top side control somehow is no longer an advantageous position to be in while grappling. Ok gotcha!
     
  15. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2004
    Messages:
    32,493
    Likes Received:
    552
    Location:
    NY
    No, you're missing my point. I'm talking specifically about a sport BJJ competition setting. I'm saying that turning someone from turtle, into side control directly (i.e. with a simple half nelson) is not the best strategic move.

    If you read my first post in this thread, I pointed out that whether those kinds of moves are good ideas depends on the setting. Wrestling, Judo, MMA, or just rolling in class or even sub only, it makes sense. In competition BJJ, at the highest levels, you don't see anyone looking for turnovers from turtle to side control. Since tactics today have become so sport-specific, the very fact that nobody's really doing that should demonstrate that it's not the best tactic for a sport BJJ match. I'm sure someone thought of it at some point.

    Now, if you're arguing that it's a stupid rule set to encourage that, then fine, I'm with you on that. I agree. But as I said when I brought it up, I'm talking about different tactics for different contexts, and for that specific context, I don't think a bar arm or a spiral ride is your best bet.
     
  16. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    28,601
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Down from day 1
    I understand your point and see your point of view for sure. I still think that turning someone and ending up in top sidecontrol is not a bad idea. Of course it doesn't directly give you points, but it does set you up in a very advantageous position to work your game.

    There is a reason that points are awarded for "getting" to top side control (takedown, pass) so getting there directly isn't a bad thing imo, especially if you're having trouble breaking the turtle like the OP is saying.


    Of course there is also a reason you get more points for a back take than sidecontrol.......... Hmmm.
     
  17. dmwalking

    dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    9,404
    Likes Received:
    4,957
    The truck. Seriously, learn the truck. Great for attacking the turtle and lots of finishing options.
     
  18. rmongler

    rmongler Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,445
    Likes Received:
    3,839
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    leg ride is the one true god, and power half is his prophet.
     
  19. selfcritical

    selfcritical Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    3,700
    Likes Received:
    813
    The belly-down anklelock is surprisingly easy vs turtle. Drilled it at sambo practice sunday.
     
  20. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    18,558
    Likes Received:
    4,074
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    It's funny that when Eddie Bravo first became famous all anyone cared about where the lockdown half and rubber guard, but it's the truck and rolling back takes that have easily seen the most utilization in high level grappling and MMA.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.