International Turkey announces invasion of Syria

[method115]

Aren't we illegally occupying Syria? We shouldn't be there. I hope that anyone going after Trump for all the laws he's broken in other threads isn't also in this thread claiming he's making a mistake.

 

[MicroBrew]

Fair enough

I do feel for the Kurds, not only for the fact that they have helped the US but also because they have a rather interesting experiment going on in Rojava. But as I have been saying the Turks have legitimate interests in Syria that shouldn't be denied and unfortunately they conflict with those of the Syrian Kurds.

In a general sense sure I don't like how he's handled our alliances. But to me this is its own issue that is more enmeshed with the realities of the region rather than Trump's isolationism. He's hardly unique in turning his back on the Kurds like this, its an American tradition at this point.

I mean, just think about it for a minute. Kurds live in both Syria and Turkey and have had a decades long armed separatist struggle against Turkey. In addition Turkey has taken in more Syrian refugees than any other country. Those two facts alone are enough to establish the Turkish stake in Syria.

How about the fact that Turkey is a NATO ally facing a legitimate threat from renewed Kurdish separatism?

Maybe I'm too much of a gatekeeper but to me it matters to be right for the right reason. Even if you think Graham and Shapiro are right here are they right for the right reason? IMO, not at all.

I think everyone knows Turkey has a genuine concern for Kurdish separatism but that does not mean we should be understanding of Turkish interests. One could say the same about Israel or many other nations , that they have a genuine concern of losing power and or territory. We can acknowledge to the Turks: sure you have legit concerns on Kurdish separatism but why should we support you attempts at Ethnic hegemony.

Morally the Turks are in the wrong, for their attempts to suppress the Kurds and engaging in cultural genocide .

 

[Factory]

That doesn´t make this any less shitty. The Kurds have fought and died for US interests. Now they just get left behind to get slaughtered by fucking Turdogan. The US simply can´t be trusted as an ally. I hope the rest of the world take note and tell the US to go fuck themselves the next time they want to start a war in the sandbox.

They died for US interests? Don't make me laugh. They died because they want their own country and they are ready to kill for that. Too bad their potential territory includes parts of Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq. Erdogan is trash, but to establish the state of Kurdistan is a shitty, expensive, unpredictable and dangerous idea. I feel sorry for them, but Trump did the only right decision.

Omfg, a president who fulfills election promises. This must be a true shocker for the ordinary politician. Poor Lindsey Graham, poor democrats...

 

[Stoic1]

They died for US interests? Don't make me laugh. They died because they want their own country and they are ready to kill for that. Too bad their potential territory includes parts of Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq. Erdogan is trash, but to establish the state of Kurdistan is a shitty, expensive, unpredictable and dangerous idea. I feel sorry for them, but Trump did the only right decision.

Omfg, a president who fulfills election promises. This must be a true shocker for the ordinary politician. Poor Lindsey Graham, poor democrats...

2 Things:

1) They were the only effective force fighting ISIS for a number of years.
2) There is no permanency in that region. Heck, just about every country over there is 100 years old - Israel much less than that.

Also - fuck Trump.

 

[Joe]

Rand is such trash

 

[Arkain2K]

Out of curiosity why do they not want the Kurds to actually fulfill their plans for an actual state? There are two pretty obvious reasons as far as I can tell. The first being that the US would have to actually betray a strategic and real state ally (Turkey) or is it because it would cause a war like no other as there are too many major players in the region?

Let's see what the views are from each angle:

- Europe: Britain/France ain't gonna do shit to fix the fall-out from their half-assed Ottoman Empire partitioning. They will once again complain very loudly, and expects the U.S to take care of their mess. Germany will most certainly put in their share of moral ourage too, even if they have done fuck-all for anyone here.

- The Middle East: Kurdish independence means Iraq/Iran/Syria/Turkey will lose the chunk territories that was once promised to the Kurds but given to them instead, so it must be stopped.

- The U.S public: Despite the massive outcry being stoked right now, the general public actually knows next to nothing about the Kurds besides "good Kurds being killed by bad Erdogan because of bad Trump". Most don't even understand that Turkey is an actual NATO member and have a real stake in this. History has proven that these momentary and woefully-informed outrages are often partisan in nature (as evidenced by 9 out of 10 posts in here are about Trump with only 1 about the Kurds) and will come to past just like the seven screwjobs that came before it.

- Washington: The Kurds don't have a well-funded lobby to keep their cause alive, so there's no political capital for any politicians to help create Israel v2.0, with nothing tangible in return on the horizon. This is particularly a hard sell when Europe has no plan to do anything to change the status quo that they shaped for the Kurds a century ago.

- The Establishment: Despite the torrents of crocodile tears flowing right now, politicians actually like having convenient non-state mercenaries on the board whom we can arms whenever it suits our mutual interests, and leave behind in favor of our official allies when our objective is done.

- The World: It would take an international consensus to redraw any border maps (plus an internation peace-keeping force to enforce it), and that's next to impossible now with all the quasi proxy wars going on behind the scene with the regional powers. The best time to push for some redrawing was probably back when a bunch of national borders were wiped out by ISIS, and the Kurds scored enormous amount of goodwill when the regional governments failed do anything to stop the massacres in these areas and the Kurds did a good amount of heavy lifting to help all these countries' take back their territories with the heavy weaponry that we provided, but it's too late now as the cogs and wheels in the machine continues resetting back to the delicate positions it once were before ISIS.

PS: Here's a general map of where the Kurds are living, you can see why nobody wants to give the Kurds their own home:

 

[AgonyandIrony]

2 Things:

1) They were the only effective force fighting ISIS for a number of years.
2) There is no permanency in that region. Heck, just about every country over there is 100 years old - Israel much less than that.

Also - fuck Trump.

The Siege of Kobani is one of the most fascinating battles in the last couple decades. Pure badassery by the Kurds fighting building to building while the Turks did everything they could to let Kobani fall.

I've been combing Al Jazeera and every news source I can all day at work, it looks like the Kurdish fighters are in good spirits as they ready to repel the invaders.

Lmao at everyone thinking pulling 100 soldiers out is about bringing them home as opposed to giving the Turks free reign for murder and genocide.

Wonder what Erdogan offered Trump in exchange.

 

[Arkain2K]

Wonder what Erdogan offered Trump in exchange.

Like the OP clearly stated, Turkey agree to take care of the thousands of foreign ISIS fighters currently in SDF custody that he spent the last 3 years demanding their own governments to take back and prosecute, to no avail.

Millions of your tax dollars goes to the housing, feeding, and guarding those prisoners by the way. Their own governments contributed nothing, pretends they don't exists, and assume their people are America's problem to take care of.

We soon will find out what "take care of" actually means. Not even gonna be surprised if those prisons will simply be shelled, to be honest.

 

[Happy Man]

2 Things:

1) They were the only effective force fighting ISIS for a number of years.
2) There is no permanency in that region. Heck, just about every country over there is 100 years old - Israel much less than that.

Also - fuck Trump.

like hell they were. The Christians and minorities of the Syrian Arab Army fought ISIS tooth and nail. And the Kurds didn’t do shit until ISIS finally came for them as well. The PMU were made of volunteers who stopped ISIS in its tracks.

the Kurds refused To go on the offensive until they were bribed.

 

[Happy Man]

The Siege of Kobani is one of the most fascinating battles in the last couple decades. Pure badassery by the Kurds fighting building to building while the Turks did everything they could to let Kobani fall.

I've been combing Al Jazeera and every news source I can all day at work, it looks like the Kurdish fighters are in good spirits as they ready to repel the invaders.

Lmao at everyone thinking pulling 100 soldiers out is about bringing them home as opposed to giving the Turks free reign for murder and genocide.

Wonder what Erdogan offered Trump in exchange.

Kobani was saved by American air strikes.
And yes the Turks did everything they could to help isis and any terrorists in Syria.
But remember at the beginning, our foreign policy establishment supported That

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think everyone knows Turkey has a genuine concern for Kurdish separatism but that does not mean we should be understanding of Turkish interests.

The fact that they are a NATO ally does mean that or at least should.

One could say the same about Israel or many other nations , that they have a genuine concern of losing power and or territory. We can acknowledge to the Turks: sure you have legit concerns on Kurdish separatism but why should we support you attempts at Ethnic hegemony.

Morally the Turks are in the wrong, for their attempts to suppress the Kurds and engaging in cultural genocide .

I'm not talking about merely losing power, the Kurds just like the Palestinians present a threat of terrorism to the Turks. Just as in the case of Israel-Palestine its the state actor that has more power and should be held to a higher standard but that doesn't mean they don't have legitimate security interests that should be respected to an extent. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep an eye on their military interventions against their respective separatist movements and hold them to a high moral standard and on that end Israel gets a far, far longer leash than Turkey does. If anything Erdogan has a better track record with the Kurds than most of his predecessors but at the end of the day as the leader of Turkey he can't entirely ignore the threat that Kurdish separatism presents.

 

[MicroBrew]

Maybee Bibi can change Trump's mind. One of the rare times I agree with Israel/Netanyahu

* Israeli media portray Trump's move as "betrayal" of Kurds
"Israel strongly condemns the Turkish invasion of the Kurdish areas in Syria and warns against the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds by Turkey and its proxies," Netanyahu wrote. "Israel is prepared to extend humanitarian assistance to the gallant Kurdish people."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-uneasy-over-trumps-refusal-170029290.html

Israel attacked Syria countless times, so why not militarily aid the Kurds against the Turks. Even though Turkey still enjoys the NATO defense pact, the West is not going to confront Israel if it decides to interfere with Turkish air operations.

Turkey agree to take care of the thousands of foreign ISIS fighters in custody that he spent the last 3 years demanding their governments to take their citizens back and prosecute, to no avail.

Millions of your tax dollars were used to pay the SDF for the housing, feeding, and guarding those prisoners by the way. Their own governments offered nothing, pretends they don't exists, and assume it's America's problem to take care of.

Which governments? Couldn't the US just force them to take their ISIS nationalities back , or just try them for war-crimes and send them to prison?

 

[Arkain2K]

Which governments? Couldn't the US just force them to take their ISIS nationalities back , or just try them for war-crimes and send them to prison?

I've included the link to the relevant discussion thread on that very subject.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Everyone is assuming that Turkey will win. And perhaps they will. They seem to have relatively well-equipped and well trained troops. But I harbor some doubts. It seems likely that Turkey will make impressive inroads into Kurdish territory initially, but can they sustain a successful offensive for the long term?

 

[MicroBrew]

The fact that they are a NATO ally does mean that or at least should.

I'm not talking about merely losing power, the Kurds just like the Palestinians present a threat of terrorism to the Turks. Just as in the case of Israel-Palestine its the state actor that has more power and should be held to a higher standard but that doesn't mean they don't have legitimate security interests that should be respected to an extent. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep an eye on their military interventions against their respective separatist movements and hold them to a high moral standard and on that end Israel gets a far, far longer leash than Turkey does. If anything Erdogan has a better track record with the Kurds than most of his predecessors but at the end of the day as the leader of Turkey he can't entirely ignore the threat that Kurdish separatism presents.

Terrorism is a loaded term though, abused far too much now to mean anything. Kurds are responding to Turkish violence and oppression against Kurds. Every country likes to portray those it fights against as "terrorists" . It all just boils down to Turkish supremacy, which we shouldn't be a part of. Just as we shouldn't support Israeli supremacy over Palestinians. Erdogan and other Turkish Nationalists will do what it takes to ensure their hegemony, but why would any of us support it or show deference? One can apply the same understanding to conservative White grievances in America , that their concerns of illegal immigration and diversity should be respected because it poses a real danger of undermining traditional Euro-American hegemony.

 

[MicroBrew]

I've included the link to the relevant discussion thread on that very subject.

So why doesn't the US force these nations to take back their nationals. Except Russia, the US has tremendous leverage to do so. The US can always use trade and diplomatic relations to pressure these countries.

 

[Happy Man]

Everyone is assuming that Turkey will win. And perhaps they will. They seem to have relatively well-equipped and well trained troops. But I harbor some doubts. It seems likely that Turkey will make impressive inroads into Kurdish territory initially, but can they sustain a successful offensive for the long term?

they are only doing a buffer zone of 30 miles

 

[Factory]

2 Things:

1) They were the only effective force fighting ISIS for a number of years.
2) There is no permanency in that region. Heck, just about every country over there is 100 years old - Israel much less than that.

Also - fuck Trump.

1) You missed my point. I said that they didn't die for the USA, or do you really think they fought ISIS just because USA told them? They want their own country. Don't get me wrong, it is true that the West used them, but they have their own, very overambitious interests.
2) War is always a mess, but this doesn't make your statement correct. According to International law middle east countries have defined borders too. Just you understand, Kurdistan is huge. It includes parts of Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. Do you really think that it's a good idea to use the US army to create with Kurdistan a new country, which threatens to "steal" regions or areas from the half middle east?

Relax, fuck Trump is overused.
I say fuck middle east wars

 

[AlexDB9]

The Siege of Kobani is one of the most fascinating battles in the last couple decades. Pure badassery by the Kurds fighting building to building while the Turks did everything they could to let Kobani fall.

I've been combing Al Jazeera and every news source I can all day at work, it looks like the Kurdish fighters are in good spirits as they ready to repel the invaders.

Lmao at everyone thinking pulling 100 soldiers out is about bringing them home as opposed to giving the Turks free reign for murder and genocide.

Wonder what Erdogan offered Trump in exchange.

You seem like a lot of the “revolutionaries” I knew. You romanticize battles and war...you might even have the heart to be involved but then you are kicked squarely in the balls with the reality

Are you willing to go fight Turks?

 

[Happy Man]

AND HERE IT IS!!!!!

Seems like Lindsay Graham has a “private vs public view” of the Turkish buffer zone.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/10/lindsey-graham-trump-hoax-call-043991

to summarize, the isreali firsters will shill for isreal publicly. Isreal demands that we stay in Syria to do their bidding and watch the Iraq/Syria border. The Kurds have spots all over that border.
Once the Kurds go back to Syrian government, then the Syrian government will control more of that border again.
This is horrible for isreal, as the iran to Iraq to Syria to Lebanon supply lines will be wide open.


That’s what all the neocon isreal always first media is freaking out about.
American soldiers should not be in harms way for isreal.

MAGA!!! Trump 2020!!!!! Bring all our troops home!