Try hard as hell to get that sub, or change my position?

My instructor always says 'position then submission'.
 
You can try "hard as hell" to get the submission. But do it w/out using strength or losing the position. Try to outsmart your opponent... think about what you need and how you can make him give it to you.
 
I'm a BJJ whitebelt and during one rolling session I was attempting to put the guy in an armbar from sidemount. I had his arm, but it wasn't fully extended because he was grabbing onto his other hand. Now this guy had a really strong grip, and I tried to break it, but moved to mount because I didn't want to go apeshit trying to rip his arm off (it was just training after all).

However, what should I have done instead? I know there are some things you can do to loosen the guy's grip (I just forgot what they were). In general though, should I work on putting all my effort into the sub, or move to a better position instead?

I think you would have got more out of it if you stuck with trying to get the armbar. You would have tried some different things to break it or outlast him as you should have gravity on your side.

You are going to have to fight for subs because no one is just gonna give up. I could see switching to another sub though or changing angles

if all he was doing was grabbing his other hand and doing nothing else-- then that is not defending it properly it is just delaying. defending it properly is escaping.

You went to mount, but what did you get out of that?

yes, position before submission-- but it is not get someone in a sub, the guy delays, give up on the sub, and improve position.

just my 2 cents
 
Position before Submission /thread.

The goal in jiu jitsu/submission grappling is to submit your opponent. Training not to lose will lead to competing that same way. If you want points, focus on freestyle and greco. I would rather lose, putting it all out there, than wonder what could have been. When people talk about Roger, do they talk about the points that he scores? No, they talk about the fact that he subs everyone.
 
position before submission...and listen to Kashiwazaki sensei:

 
I think that as long as their is still hope of finishing the submission you should not abandon it. I don't think the concept of position before submission applies in the scenario that you stated. If you were just having trouble breaking the grip you should keep working on it. I would only abandon it if he was able to slide his elbow below your hip or something like that which would make the submission unfinishable. IMO their is no position more dominant than being a small step (ie a grip break) away from finishing a sub. That is after all the main goal in BJJ. Obtaining dominant position is just the best way of achieving that goal, so the way I see it abandoning the armbar for mount would be going a step down in the positional hierarchy.
 
The goal in jiu jitsu/submission grappling is to submit your opponent. Training not to lose will lead to competing that same way. If you want points, focus on freestyle and greco. I would rather lose, putting it all out there, than wonder what could have been. When people talk about Roger, do they talk about the points that he scores? No, they talk about the fact that he subs everyone.

Of course the point is to submit. The reason people say position before submission is because if you can't get into the proper position, then how can you even get the submission? What's the point of finishing a triangle if one arm can't be put across your stomach, or if you can't get the right angle? What's the point of finishing an armbar if your legs aren't in position or the arm is too low on your hip?

Submissions are the easy part. The hard part is control, and position, which should be your main focus. Much like every boxer knows the basics: the uppercut, the jab, the hook, not every boxer is good. What enables a boxer to beat opponents is not that he/she knows these basics, but knows when to throw them, what combos... the timing, etc.

In jiu jitsu its the same. Everyone by the time they are a 3 stripe white belt should know how to do submissions. Triangles, armbars, omoplatas, chokes. Tell me why then does these 3 stripe whitebelts and everyone else not submit everyone at will? Its because just knowing the submission is not enough. One needs control AND position... timing...

The TS, he bailed on his position because he couldn't finish the armbar but he still had dominant position whether side control or mount. I don't know about you, but side control/mount for me offers a myriad of attacks that I feel are even more high percentage than a poorly applied armbar.

Don't get it twisted, when people say position/control over submission, its not because you want points or are not hunting for the submission. In fact its the opposite. You get the control AND the position, and the submission will fall into place, the heavens will shine its light on you, and the angels will sing. :icon_chee
 
Of course the point is to submit. The reason people say position before submission is because if you can't get into the proper position, then how can you even get the submission? What's the point of finishing a triangle if one arm can't be put across your stomach, or if you can't get the right angle? What's the point of finishing an armbar if your legs aren't in position or the arm is too low on your hip?

Submissions are the easy part. The hard part is control, and position, which should be your main focus. Much like every boxer knows the basics: the uppercut, the jab, the hook, not every boxer is good. What enables a boxer to beat opponents is not that he/she knows these basics, but knows when to throw them, what combos... the timing, etc.

In jiu jitsu its the same. Everyone by the time they are a 3 stripe white belt should know how to do submissions. Triangles, armbars, omoplatas, chokes. Tell me why then does these 3 stripe whitebelts and everyone else not submit everyone at will? Its because just knowing the submission is not enough. One needs control AND position... timing...

The TS, he bailed on his position because he couldn't finish the armbar but he still had dominant position whether side control or mount. I don't know about you, but side control/mount for me offers a myriad of attacks that I feel are even more high percentage than a poorly applied armbar.

Don't get it twisted, when people say position/control over submission, its not because you want points or are not hunting for the submission. In fact its the opposite. You get the control AND the position, and the submission will fall into place, the heavens will shine its light on you, and the angels will sing. :icon_chee

There is not an intelligent argument against what you are saying, so I will refrain from making myself look like an idiot. The thing that gets me is, he bailed because he couldn't break his training partners grip. Had he stated that the position he was in didn't allow the finish, then going to a controlling position and working a different offense is not only reasonable, but intelligent. If you don't learn to finish, when you have your opponent dead to rights, you will continually fall short of your goals.

For example, I personally like the Brabo choke(I was shown a set up from side control that works pretty well for me), but rarely get the finish when setting it up from the front headlock. I keep trying it from the front head, rather than turning the corner into a dominant position, because I want to work one of the many parts of my game that is lacking.
 
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