True or False? BJJ is worse than wrestling and judo for self defence

[Cole train]

Fair enough, I just think this:

1. MMA fighters train BJJ/Grappling, there's a reason every single one of them do. It's very effective and needed. I think Wrestling + BJJ + Striking (boxing, MT, Kickboxing, whatever) is obviously the 3 most effective arts for MMA and therefore a street fight.

2. We are assuming we are in a street fight with someone untrained or very minimally trained right? So yeah I just would feel very confident if the distance was closed, clinched or takedown shot...that I would be able to just destroy the person from top or bottom position pretty fast. I'd imagine I could take someone's back from guard easily or sweep them, regardless of strikes.

But that's assuming we aren't fighting some monster 6'3-6'5, 225-250 lbs or something that is athletic. It's all situational too, don't know how big everyone is vs the opponent, skill levels, etc. I just think BJJ is clearly good, and it's definitely better than Judo imo, which the thread title says the opposite of. You aren't about to get into a street fight with someone in a Gi.

Nice edit about the fighting off your back on last message.I actually agree with you about the fighting off your back thing

I was looking at it from the perspective how to not end up on your back at all.

Submissions are a fairly bad idea unless you can confirm there is only one attacker which is rare because usually conflicts are a group of people vesus another group of people.

You want off the ground as fast as possible

Best "style" if i have to use mma termionology is sprawl and brawl chuck liddell type in my experience

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Fair enough, I just think this:

1. MMA fighters train BJJ/Grappling, there's a reason every single one of them do. It's very effective and needed. I think Wrestling + BJJ + Striking (boxing, MT, Kickboxing, whatever) is obviously the 3 most effective arts for MMA and therefore a street fight.

2. We are assuming we are in a street fight with someone untrained or very minimally trained right? So yeah I just would feel very confident if the distance was closed, clinched or takedown shot...that I would be able to just destroy the person from top or bottom position pretty fast. I'd imagine I could take someone's back from guard easily or sweep them, regardless of strikes.

But that's assuming we aren't fighting some monster 6'3-6'5, 225-250 lbs or something that is athletic. It's all situational too, don't know how big everyone is vs the opponent, skill levels, etc. I just think BJJ is clearly good, and it's definitely better than Judo imo, which the thread title says the opposite of. You aren't about to get into a street fight with someone in a Gi.

For 1v1, Bjj is the king

 

[thugpoet]

why does it matter? You guys keep talking about self-defense, it's not self-defense if a guy is talking crap at the bar and you start fighting that's not self-defense, that's you being a dumb ass. Self-defense is when you are getting jumped by 3 dudes and no grappling art is going to help you with that. You better learn Gun-fu or talk-no-jitsu.

Practice the moves you like and stop worrying about if it works in some random ass context that will never happen.

 

[Matsukaze]

a little bit of self defense bjj will go a long way but, even with that, you would still need to drill / practice it to be effective. Same could be said about adding MT or boxing for striking

 

[MrFriendly]

Interesting thread...

Personally don't worry about self defense much , fightings for poor people (<---joke)

As a bjj guy with trash takedowns i see the issue....what am i gonna do to take the fight where i feel most comfortable (the ground) ? What pull worm guard? Sounds sketchy.

Fortunately curriculum varies association to association / gym to gym and finding quality instruction in bjj for self defense isn't difficult.

Most good gyms offer a variety of programs to the students with their enrollment (anecdotally my home gym has wrestling, boxing, and strength and conditioning practices that are free to bjj students).

If for whatever reason you feel the need to invest time in self defense then of course a variety is better.


I do think it's a case of something is better than nothing....a sport bjj guy who is used to the grind and physicality of intense rolls/competition....accustomed to training with ppl bigger than themselves, stronger...faster...younger than themselves is gonna do pretty well against untrained randoms... like someone earlier said , most "tough" guys using violence in public can't even throw a straight punch , and I'll add seem to gas tf out inside 2-3mins

 

[ConorFacts]

Judo > Wrestling for street fights

Wrestling > Judo for mma

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Except if you have someone to defend.

This is a good example.... in self defense there are so many varying situations, so the best bet is more general fitness and knowledge of the body, plus some basic moves. In that sense, all grappling styles are great for that, and just learn basic punches and elbows.

That's a good exception. Carrying a weapon is a good idea in that case.

 

[QingTian]

you need size more than anything to deal with multiple opponents, and I will like you to hip throw anyone when you got 2 people swining at your face, be realistic, grappling with multuple opponents is a recipe to desaster, unless you have size and strenght on your side.

If there is a moment where the 2 people are separated, I would be able to throw the common man straight away. I'm not large maybe but I have strength and anaerobic endurance from Judo.

Anyway the point is that Judo (and all grappling) develops your attributes and general physical abilities. Just if you had to choose one then a standing grappling art is better for defense.

 

[sb413197]

"Which martial art is better" is an extremely general question. It entirely depends upon the situation. For overall situational preparedness it's hard to beat MMA.

If you are facing a superior grappler who is going to take you down, or training to fight from a suboptimal position in general in case you are knocked down or tackled from behind or something, BJJ is 10000 percent the better choice. BJJ is great for beating unskilled fighters because you can control them without injuring them or breaking your own hand etc. It's also the better choice, IMO, if you're facing someone who you can't take down (a big guy or wrestler who can shuck off your takedowns) - with BJJ you at least have the option of fighting off your back, if you need to - not that this is ideal.

If you want something that lets you to be aggressor and quickly KO people, boxing is probably the better choice, but Judo could be good for that too. Wrestling I'm not sure is such a great self defense art in isolation; but is a fantastic foundation to build from if you are an MMA fighter or cross-training obviously.

 

[KikoJones]

These threads give me a headache. I see BJJ techniques as broken down for Sport and Self Defense. Some of the techniques translate between them as do the techniques of Wrestling and Judo. By the way, BJJ is JUDO with a focus on Katame-waza (Grappling Techniques). If you're primary focus is on Sports BJJ, you will still be able to defend yourself against a untrained opponent. We still do Single Leg, Double Leg, Ankle picks, etc in BJJ. The only difference I see is that in Wrestling the goal is a PIN. The goal in Olympic Style Judo is an IPPON or more rarely submission. In Sports BJJ the goal is win by points or submission, BECAUSE its a SPORT. In Self Defense BJJ is submission.

Which one is better? Its subjective.

At the end they are all Grappling. Its painful to think that because your academy is training Lapel Guard, that you can't understand that it's primarily designed for SPORT.

Do I really have to say that if you really want to focus on Self Defense because "you never know", go train MMA?

 

[SandisLL]

most "tough" guys using violence in public can't even throw a straight punch , and I'll add seem to gas tf out inside 2-3mins

I completely disagree.
-
Most GBH and worse outcomes aren't done buy athletes or some kind of belts.
Morques too mainly are filled not from highly trained guys hands.
-
About second part, most likely, you are correct that majority of folk in pubs for example, doesn't have gas tank for 2 minutes…..most likely and I tend agree with you.
-
but one of most terrible mistakes is to rely on someones gassing out if there is ANY chance that another dumbasses too might be involved, also from behind.
Streetstuff very rarerly is longer than 2-30 seconds.
Therefore even ppl with damn shitty gas tanks are still really dangerous.
Especially if they have experience and it is not safe to assume that a guy in pub, for example, can't beat, definitely will gave up if you will hit him in face ( some exemplars even add their aggressivity after being hit ) , did had 0 training, doesn't have buddies nearby etc possible stuff.
You also don't know how this guy uses adrenaline dump, some exemplars with dump fights better.
----
I had seen enough " untrained " randoms too.
----
Regards to CCW and sprays, if this is allowed, it is good stuff but not always usable.
For example, assiliants surprise attacks h2h usually starts only from close range, without notice.

Second variant: you work somevhere, some clients disagree with settled bill, yes, they look a bit aggressive, but yet didn't any violence.
You don't have rights to treat with legally carried handgun a guy/ guys that just doesn't agree with something. Especially in CCTV era.
So you do have CCW in holster under clothing or in pocket.
Some countries even don't allow carry pistol already l with cartridge in chamber, thanks to God revolvers exists. O.K, cash transport guards, impactful infrastructure guards might have more lenient rules for carrying.

Now you didn't had rights even to show them your CCW.
Then he is 1 - 5 ft from you, discuss, and bumm, he grabs you or sucker punches, kick, might headbutt or stab. Good luck get CCW in hand then….

Another scenario.
Not rarerly they ask something, maybe for few bucks etc not that matters what. Some just are annoying.
Now with witnesses in other side of the street or CCTV might happen even worse:
He is MAD, I wished to ask how to find next ( insert ) or something else ( insert ).
He treats me with CCW!!!
* Might get for this licence suspended, check up in madhouse, maybe court.
Safespace comes, now plenty of countries require report any usage, even blank cartridge in forest to deal with wild dog.
There also plenty of people who are happy to sue someone for a living too.
Police officers should fill bunches of papers and answer questions if they fired in air to prevent crime, not alone if they fired on an assiliant.
Now imagine, what might happen with casual civilian if he treats with CCW casual unarmed joe that before this wasn't violent ... on the street….start at least with long & nasty paperwork that might happen. If he doesn't have any criminal record, even worse.

 

[mcgoatp4p#1]

Judo or boxing if you're not worried about a potential lawsuit or jail time. If you are, as you should be, jiu jitsu should suffice, maybe complimented by some basic wrestling.

 

[SandisLL]

. If you're primary focus is on Sports BJJ, you will still be able to defend yourself against a untrained opponent.

Most likely and also against trained but not better trained than you are.
If you suspected possible attack enough early, any sport training might help a lot.

 

[SandisLL]

Judo or boxing if you're not worried about a potential lawsuit or jail time.

Not rarerly you will not have time to think. You will do stuff what is enough automatized for you.
Also I think that prison is better than coffin for most of people.

There is difference why retarded violent dumbasses not rarerly won their victims: they DO, not think.
Yes, maybe they plan how to attack without rising suspicion or how to better do first sucker kick or sucker punch. Not about court.

 

[sb413197]

BJJ is categorically worse than either for self defense, as soon as you have more than one attacker. Okay that part is obvious, but what's not obvious is that most people do not attack you unless they have a big advantage....like having multiple attackers (or weapon). So unless you are a weak looking person, actually BJJ is not helpful at all because those aren't the situations you will be in except in rare cases.

Depends on the situation. If you are tackled or sucker punched from behind, I would say you have a better chance of surviving off your back and getting back up to your feet if you are a BJJ player, then a wrestler or judoka - where going belly down or to your knees will get you head kicked or stomped more likely as opposed to knee shield/technical standup like we are trained to do in BJJ. Not that it's a guarantee at all, you could easily get stomped and head kicked there too.

If your goal is to actually beat multiple attackers like a martial arts movie, that is never a good idea because you are more likely to get badly hurt...but you definitely have a better chance of it from a Judo or boxing background...can't see how wrestling really helps. But I don't think it's smart to actually aim to WIN against multiple attackers - your goal is escape.

 

[yetanother]

Also, they are really fun to play and can get really complex from a technical standpoint. That being said, these guards (as well as guards like spider/lasso/worm etc.) have little to no value in a self defence context.

Nope. If you have a good deep half you can instantly sweep low tier mma fighters (haven't rolled with punches against any UFC people) and I assume untrained idiots.
Also you can go to deep half from a lot of super bad positions where otherwise you will receive a serious ass beating.

 

[Smato_rules]

I feel like if you fucked up and ended up on bottom in a fight deep half guard would be one of the better positions to get a sweep with.

 

[MrFriendly]

I completely disagree.
-
Most GBH and worse outcomes aren't done buy athletes or some kind of belts.
Morques too mainly are filled not from highly trained guys hands.
-
About second part, most likely, you are correct that majority of folk in pubs for example, doesn't have gas tank for 2 minutes…..most likely and I tend agree with you.
-
but one of most terrible mistakes is to rely on someones gassing out if there is ANY chance that another dumbasses too might be involved, also from behind.
Streetstuff very rarerly is longer than 2-30 seconds.
Therefore even ppl with damn shitty gas tanks are still really dangerous.
Especially if they have experience and it is not safe to assume that a guy in pub, for example, can't beat, definitely will gave up if you will hit him in face ( some exemplars even add their aggressivity after being hit ) , did had 0 training, doesn't have buddies nearby etc possible stuff.
You also don't know how this guy uses adrenaline dump, some exemplars with dump fights better.
----
I had seen enough " untrained " randoms too.
----
Regards to CCW and sprays, if this is allowed, it is good stuff but not always usable.
For example, assiliants surprise attacks h2h usually starts only from close range, without notice.

Second variant: you work somevhere, some clients disagree with settled bill, yes, they look a bit aggressive, but yet didn't any violence.
You don't have rights to treat with legally carried handgun a guy/ guys that just doesn't agree with something. Especially in CCTV era.
So you do have CCW in holster under clothing or in pocket.
Some countries even don't allow carry pistol already l with cartridge in chamber, thanks to God revolvers exists. O.K, cash transport guards, impactful infrastructure guards might have more lenient rules for carrying.

Now you didn't had rights even to show them your CCW.
Then he is 1 - 5 ft from you, discuss, and bumm, he grabs you or sucker punches, kick, might headbutt or stab. Good luck get CCW in hand then….

Another scenario.
Not rarerly they ask something, maybe for few bucks etc not that matters what. Some just are annoying.
Now with witnesses in other side of the street or CCTV might happen even worse:
He is MAD, I wished to ask how to find next ( insert ) or something else ( insert ).
He treats me with CCW!!!
* Might get for this licence suspended, check up in madhouse, maybe court.
Safespace comes, now plenty of countries require report any usage, even blank cartridge in forest to deal with wild dog.
There also plenty of people who are happy to sue someone for a living too.
Police officers should fill bunches of papers and answer questions if they fired in air to prevent crime, not alone if they fired on an assiliant.
Now imagine, what might happen with casual civilian if he treats with CCW casual unarmed joe that before this wasn't violent ... on the street….start at least with long & nasty paperwork that might happen. If he doesn't have any criminal record, even worse.

Lolwut.... I've no idea what you're on about bud

 

[aries]

I do think it's a case of something is better than nothing....a sport bjj guy who is used to the grind and physicality of intense rolls/competition....accustomed to training with ppl bigger than themselves, stronger...faster...younger than themselves is gonna do pretty well against untrained randoms... like someone earlier said , most "tough" guys using violence in public can't even throw a straight punch , and I'll add seem to gas tf out inside 2-3mins

I've always believed in this. Yeah I could get really unlucky and come up against a guy with training or worse several guys with training but nothing is going to help you in that situation other than a gun but this has never happened to me. Training in anything is going to put you way ahead of the average idiot you'll encounter on the street. I should add that I have encountered multiple attackers and it was my boxing that helped me out there. And where knives were involved I just got the fuck out of there, I was just lucky that there was a way out on those occasions.

 

[Blake_UK]

The idea of “untrained” is a stupid one.

The biggest advantage in a fight (aside from numbers) is aggression and power.

Some of the hardest people I have known never set foot in a fighting gym or trained any MA. They just loved to fight. They weren’t scared to hurt others or be hurt/arrested themselves. They would constantly get into fights which meant they knew what they were doing.

Sure, at the expert level they probably wouldn’t win; but for your average blue/purple belt or boxing/MT club member etc etc my money is on the savage.

I would rather fight a “trained” guy who isn’t a compete arsehole than a genuine street fighter who is just out to hurt me.

As for SD it’s not hard really:

Self awareness.
Situational awareness.
Weights.
Cardio.
Grappling art plus striking art (eg Judo and Boxing or BJJ and MT etc etc).