Transsexual BJJ brown belt does her public coming out.

[Einarr]

Actually, I did address this. I have posted the 2003 study on skeletal dimensions several times. There is great morphological variation within a gender, as you can see by looking at the bodies of female fighters (or the bodies of male fighters). Both Fallon and I fall within the normal range of female bodies.

Yeah, but at the very extreme end in every single area. There's a reason people looked at your and Fallon's photos and said "that's a man" before either of you "came out". A biological woman would almost never have big hands, broad shoulders, narrow hips and a thick jaw/brow-ridge and if she did that would be because there has been something gone wrong hormonally somewhere along the line.

This gives you a massive physical advantage over 99.9% of women. You need to check your trans privilege!

 

[spectrum]

Hypothetical situation:

I am a regular 25 year old man and am subjected to gamma radiation, endowing me with superhuman strength and uncontrollable rage. Luckily, the IBJJF doesn't test for gamma radiation and I use said powers to win the Mundials 5 years in a row. After 10 years the radiation wears off, and I go back to being a normal 35 year old male, but I have 5 Mundial medals. Was this fair?

So much win.

 

[Kid Muscle]

We have ang ugly ladyboy fighting for the right to compete with women

Ladyboys in muay thai compete against men still

So stop being a coward and face men

 

[Einarr]

We have ang ugly ladyboy fighting for the right to compete with women

Ladyboys in muay thai compete against men still

So stop being a coward and face men

And I thought I was being brutally honest. :icon_lol:

 

[Higher Learning]

:icon_lol:

Hypothetical situation:

I am a regular 25 year old man and am subjected to gamma radiation, endowing me with superhuman strength and uncontrollable rage. Luckily, the IBJJF doesn't test for gamma radiation and I use said powers to win the Mundials 5 years in a row. After 10 years the radiation wears off, and I go back to being a normal 35 year old male, but I have 5 Mundial medals. Was this fair?

:icon_lol:

 

[EndlessCritic]

Better question. If me and fallon fox fight on the street and I kick her ass, do I go to jail for beating a women ?

Since she's transexual you probably get double the sentence since they assume it's a hate crime.

 

[Kid Muscle]

Men should compete with men, women should compete with women

You are a man, and a transgendered person. I will call you ma'am and respect your decision to be yourself.

However in competition you are still a man, and you should be competing with guys in your same weight class. Makes sense right? I mean you have skill and are a brown belt, why not compete with men?

Women are inherently the physically weaker species.

Your shoulders, your neck, and your face still are that of a man. You have bone structure of a man, and you have the skillset to take out dudes at your weight class.

By outing yourself, you have now placed yourself in openweight/mens divisions

 

[codemonkey76]

Men should compete with men, women should compete with women

You are a man, and a transgendered person. I will call you ma'am and respect your decision to be yourself.

However in competition you are still a man, and you should be competing with guys in your same weight class. Makes sense right? I mean you have skill and are a brown belt, why not compete with men?

Women are inherently the physically weaker species.

Your shoulders, your neck, and your face still are that of a man. You have bone structure of a man, and you have the skillset to take out dudes at your weight class.

By outing yourself, you have now placed yourself in openweight/mens divisions

Biological sex is not black and white, educate yourself, read the thread.

 

[mixmaster staph]

Biological sex is not black and white, educate yourself, read the thread.

Whether or not you possess the organs required to birth a child (whether they work or not, before you throw that vapid argument out) is pretty fucking set in stone. You mean gender.

 

[codemonkey76]

Whether or not you posses the organs required to birth a child (whether they work or not, before you throw that vapid argument out) is pretty fucking set in stone. You mean gender.

yeah i mean gender.

 

[mixmaster staph]

yeah i mean gender.

Sorry for being touchy by the way, I was going to edit my post to be less aggro but you've already replied. I'm in a bad mood because I'm hungry.

 

[codemonkey76]

Sorry for being touchy by the way, I was going to edit my post to be less aggro but you've already replied. I'm in a bad mood because I'm hungry.

haha, so am I... cutting for competition on Saturday... need to make 79.5KG for no-gi

 

[mixmaster staph]

haha, so am I... cutting for competition on Saturday... need to make 79.5KG for no-gi

Ah, the worst kind of hungry. Good luck for the comp though man!

 

[pseudo genki]

Whether or not you possess the organs required to birth a child (whether they work or not, before you throw that vapid argument out) is pretty fucking set in stone. You mean gender.

I'm glad that you two hungry weight-cutters worked that out without acrimony, but it's not set in stone. Hermaphrodites exist. Intersex people who naturally change which sex they phenotypically resemble during puberty exist. Much like people with gender dysphoria, they're rare enough that most people don't take them into account when universalizing sweeping generalizations.

Also food for thought: Many hermaphrodites are surgically made into females shortly after birth. Some are never told by their parents that they underwent surgery and raised as "normal" girls.

 

[pseudo genki]

See, when you say stuff like this

Women are inherently the physically weaker species.

It makes me kind of doubt your ability to make judgments like this

Your shoulders, your neck, and your face still are that of a man. You have bone structure of a man, and you have the skillset to take out dudes at your weight class.

Because if you think that women are a different species, I have even more trouble taking you seriously when you claim you can tell by sight what nobody could tell during years of competition.

 

[JustCuz]

Yeah, but at the very extreme end in every single area. There's a reason people looked at your and Fallon's photos and said "that's a man" before either of you "came out". A biological woman would almost never have big hands, broad shoulders, narrow hips and a thick jaw/brow-ridge and if she did that would be because there has been something gone wrong hormonally somewhere along the line.

This gives you a massive physical advantage over 99.9% of women. You need to check your trans privilege!

Does it REALLY make sense to argue the "extreme end of the normal range" though?

What about cis women (hope I'm using this term correctly) who fall at the extreme end of the normal range? What about ones who fall OUTSIDE of the normal range?

If it's a "normal range" then there will be women who were born as women who fall OUTSIDE of that normal range. Is it unfair that they compete against other women? Should they be fighting against men because they (may) have an (alleged) "biological advantage"? Or should we just accept that people come in all shapes and sizes and you can't say "this is a man" or "this is a woman" based on some arbitrary set of measures like hip width and bone density and hand size?

I've found all of this discussion and debate pretty fascinating. I've got no strong opinions one way or the other but I'm enjoying all of the constructive conversation.

 

[pseudo genki]

There's a reason people looked at your and Fallon's photos and said "that's a man" before either of you "came out".

Find me one example of this, I'll wait.
Alaina has faced opponents who were stronger but less technical than her. Fallon was getting (wo)man handled in her last fight until the final three seconds when her opponent dropped/shot into a knee. After you know an athlete is trans you start looking for things that confirm what you already "knew" and confirmation bias takes care of the rest.

In the Bleacher Report article you linked last thread, there were a ton of commentators who wanted to know "why the black man was allowed to beat up the real woman" because in the photo from the weigh-ins, the caption didn't tell them which athlete was transsexual. They didn't know what they were supposed to see.

 

[nhbfan8080]

I agree about the subject being fascinating and worth debating. I'm trying to avoid the assholes and morons and focus just on the research. I really appreciate the work Bloody Elbow has done, especially because you have been calling for reason and respect.

I don't know of any studies on trans athletes, unfortunately. It is unexplored territory so far. I am trying to change that, but it's not going to be overnight. The only thing I know of is a literature review by Dr Michaela Devries that talks about the potential physiological and anatomical benefits. I wouldn't call it conclusive, but it's a good place to go for a summary of some of the stuff I've talked about.

http://50.6.145.77/e/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Devries_lit_review2.pdf
.......

It didn't seem to look into the possibility of transsexual women having greater bone mass and bigger stronger tendons for their weight compared to natural women, or things like bigger hands which would help in gripping.

The science does seem to be weak and the ioc decision seems motivated partly at least by political correctness rather than careful scientific study.

And I think it also has something to do with the attitude of the medical profession of over-estimating their capabilities as the sad case of David Reimer was shoved under the rug.

 

[mixmaster staph]

I'm glad that you two hungry weight-cutters worked that out without acrimony, but it's not set in stone. Hermaphrodites exist. Intersex people who naturally change which sex they phenotypically resemble during puberty exist. Much like people with gender dysphoria, they're rare enough that most people don't take them into account when universalizing sweeping generalizations.

Also food for thought: Many hermaphrodites are surgically made into females shortly after birth. Some are never told by their parents that they underwent surgery and raised as "normal" girls.

Well, if they have the necessary organs to produce eggs and gestate young they're female. They could also have the necessary organs to produce sperm...they'd be male too. Their biological sex would be...well, neither and both. Their gender would be whatever they want it to be. Whether or not an individual has the organs necessary for reproduction isn't a grey area.

Also I'm not cutting weight, I'm just greedy

 

[mixmaster staph]

Does it REALLY make sense to argue the "extreme end of the normal range" though?

What about cis women (hope I'm using this term correctly) who fall at the extreme end of the normal range? What about ones who fall OUTSIDE of the normal range?

If it's a "normal range" then there will be women who were born as women who fall OUTSIDE of that normal range. Is it unfair that they compete against other women? Should they be fighting against men because they (may) have an (alleged) "biological advantage"? Or should we just accept that people come in all shapes and sizes and you can't say "this is a man" or "this is a woman" based on some arbitrary set of measures like hip width and bone density and hand size?

I've found all of this discussion and debate pretty fascinating. I've got no strong opinions one way or the other but I'm enjoying all of the constructive conversation.

It's a case of where the average for a given population falls. By that I mean if the average hand size of trans women is greater than the average hand size of women from birth, then there's an unfair advantage. But a couple of individuals does not a scientific study make. So from a scientific point of view, it shouldn't matter where an individual's hand size falls if you want to clear or deny a group from competition.