Training Bjj as a Judo Guy

[redaxe]

I'm not really worried so much about my Judo buddies as I am with the highest ranking Judokas at the club, but I see your point.

Yeah I know what you mean. At my neighborhood Judo club where I go in to train from time to time there are these 70 year-old Japanese guys who are like 8th dan in Judo, I think if I mentioned Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to them they'd probably just make this face: :icon_neut

 

[akdms]

crouch in tachi waza! that I can understand. are you actually allowed to crouch in Judo?

Yes, so long as you aren't using it to stall. Also, it doesn't have much purpose in judo because you don't have to worry about single/double legs -- you need to be more worried about your opponent taking you over your toes.

Crouching = Uchi Mata in judo.

 

[neandtachiwaza]

I don't mean to bash your school, but my god they are close minded.

Regarding the pins though, I think you will find the opposite disdain in BJJ. Although BJJ tends to look up to the "solidness" of the judoka's top game, pinning indefinitely is generally looked down upon as the ultimate goal is to submit, not hold your opponent down. It's kind of like being constantly defensive and breaking grips in a judo match with no intent on attacking.

As far as their other issues... I'm not sure what to say. It's just sad... Most judo schools don't even train kata (or keep it to a bare minimum) -- I assume they look down on those as well?

Crouching after getting grips I can understand somewhat (if you aren't crouched before getting grips though you'll get dropped by a wrestler), but even that has it's purpose (better transition to the ground; better defense against wrestlers, who are more common than judoka in BJJ competition). Besides, mocking BJJers for having lousy standup is like mocking judo for having a poor guard game (and having an even worse striking game) -- it's just not what the art is about.

Are you sure that they will have issues with you cross training? Do they recognize the benefits? Would it apply to you since you know how to pin/throw, etc.?

No offense taken to the close minded school comment. I am not entirely sure that they will have issues with me crosstraining, and I guess the only way to find out is to do it. Does this really seem as crazy a story as you guys are making it out to be? I thought many clubs were very tight nit and looked down on crosstraining.

 

[Jaxx]

Change Judo Club to one thats more open minded + has a balanced stand up/ground game.

Many BJJ guys on here are just as closed minded on Judo/Sambo/Catch....always learn from the best teachers/talent pool available.

 

[Balto]

I have experience with both arts and have found things to break out this way:

Non-traditional types in both arts generally hold the other art in high regard. They'll look at your cross training as a positive if anything. This is how I look at things, and the most effective competitors typically hold this view.

Traditional BJJ guys are usually indifferent towards Judo. It does not bother them too much, but they don't see a real point in training it either. They will usually concede that the throws are cool, but they view the throwing philosophy as too flashy and high risk to be practical.

Traditional Judo guys usually despise BJJ with a passion. I really don't know why they hate it so much. They treat it like a bastardization of Judo and act like anyone training BJJ is personally insulting them. This sounds like what you are running into at your club.

Ultimately, the problem is that you are training at a traditional minded club. In the long run, no matter how good you think the instruction is, this type of club will hold you back. You can't progress fully in an environment where people are afraid to take risks and try new things.

I'd recommend that you branch out to BJJ and consider finding a new Judo club as well.

 

[joe90210]

No offense taken to the close minded school comment. I am not entirely sure that they will have issues with me crosstraining, and I guess the only way to find out is to do it. Does this really seem as crazy a story as you guys are making it out to be? I thought many clubs were very tight nit and looked down on crosstraining.

not really crazy, there are a bunch of stories here dealing with the politics of grappling, this seems to be a fairly common occurrence

 

[neandtachiwaza]

I really don't want to change Judo clubs, but I do want to crosstrain Bjj.

 

[neandtachiwaza]

not really crazy, there are a bunch of stories here dealing with the politics of grappling, this seems to be a fairly common occurrence

Yeah, Iv'e heard similar stories, but It starts to get crazy when you find yourself in the same situation. The BJJ instructor gave me two weeks of free classes and I really liked it. There aren't any contracts and they are really laid back and most of the people their seem to respect Judo. I would really like to train with them, and i kind of see this as a real opportunity to take my groundgame to the next level, and as a senior in college, I may not ever get another chance to train this much ever again.

 

[akdms]

No offense taken to the close minded school comment. I am not entirely sure that they will have issues with me crosstraining, and I guess the only way to find out is to do it. Does this really seem as crazy a story as you guys are making it out to be? I thought many clubs were very tight nit and looked down on crosstraining.

BJJ clubs are very tight nit and frequently look down training at rival academies. It's very political though. I train at a Ribeiro association school -- me cross-training at the local Machado school would possibly result in me getting booted, or at least having my promotions blocked. I could probably get away with occasionally training at the local Caique school though, especially if it was in prep for a national / international tournament and I let my instructor know, because, for whatever reason, we seem to have some relations with them (that I don't understand--like I said, it's political). Training at other academies while traveling isn't an issue.

BUT, training other ARTS is totally different -- they couldn't care less if/where I train judo or any other martial art, and in fact they encourage it because it makes me a better competitor for the association.

 

[akdms]

Yeah, Iv'e heard similar stories, but It starts to get crazy when you find yourself in the same situation. The BJJ instructor gave me two weeks of free classes and I really liked it. There aren't any contracts and they are really laid back and most of the people their seem to respect Judo. I would really like to train with them, and i kind of see this as a real opportunity to take my groundgame to the next level, and as a senior in college, I may not ever get another chance to train this much ever again.

Are you planning on moving after you graduate, or do you plan on staying where you are and training judo at your current club for the rest of your life? If you aren't even staying in the area after you graduate then I would say screw what your judo seniors say about BJJ. This is an opportunity for you to expand yourself as a martial artist, which will carry over for years to come, and will likely be an non-issue at any other school you train at in the future.

 

[Balto]

The root cause of it gets down to more than just BJJ versus Judo. It's BJJ versus every other art.

Most other traditional minded guys in other arts hate BJJ too. Yet strangely, traditional minded guys in BJJ tend to hate other arts a lot less. I really think it comes down to insecurity in the end.

It's controversial to say it, but I think it's clear (whether people will openly admit it or not they tend to know it deep down) that BJJ fares particularly well against almost every other established style in a match. It is almost perfectly engineered to succeed in that particular situation. There's a lot more to effectiveness than just a one on one challenge match between practitioners, but that particular raw "who beats who" match up is a very sensitive subject to traditional martial artists. The fact that BJJ beats Judo, Karate, TKD, Muay Thai, etc., almost every time is a very sore spot.

You can even see it starting to happen with traditional BJJ guys now. Although there are no established arts that are seen as threats, the mixed philosophy of modern MMA does generate fighters who typically prevail over traditional BJJ guys in the challenge match up. This is why you see some of the older BJJ guys being dismissive of MMA as having too many rules to be practical (gloves, referee stand ups, banning certain strikes, etc.).

In the end, it's all the same insecure attitude. Whether it's a Judo guy claiming he'd kill you on concrete with his throw, or a Karate guy claiming he'd kill you with his punch before you could clinch with him, they are all aware that deep down they have had a weakness exposed. Non-traditional guys embrace this and are eager to cross train to fix it, but traditional guys are always going to react with bitterness.

 

[nefti]

as a person who also has experienced both in a judo powerhouse (Republic of Korea) i find that the anti bjj thing is mostly a western judo idea. Korean judokas are actually intrigued by the depth and diversity of the bjj ground game and like it because it opens so many other options. Heck Shina Aoki is a damm good judoka from japan and he had no qualms about putting on a non black belt to train bjj. As a matter of fact both yoon dong shik and jang bok yeong used to drop by and train at my old gym in korea.

 

[neandtachiwaza]

Are you planning on moving after you graduate, or do you plan on staying where you are and training judo at your current club for the rest of your life? If you aren't even staying in the area after you graduate then I would say screw what your judo seniors say about BJJ. This is an opportunity for you to expand yourself as a martial artist, which will carry over for years to come, and will likely be an non-issue at any other school you train at in the future.

I will be getting the heck out of the place I am at a soon as i graduate.

 

[Rod1]

We have had BJJ people train with us and many Judo players seem to get annoyed at the fact that BJJ peole don't go for pins. Also many people mock BJJ guys for not doing kata.

Don't go for pins? specify, if they are not going for pins in tournament mode randori, they are idiots, if they don't go for pins in newaza randori, its their problem.

People that go for 1 pin only in newaza are also not improving their game, in my judo school we had the 5 second rule, when we applied a pin, we would hold it for 5 seconds and then transition into another pin.

The way that BJJ guys crouch when doing tachi waza is also fequently discussed.

So? show them wrong, use footwork to throw them at will and if they crouch too much they are penalized, go for some yoko tomoe nage and they will learn that their stand up way is wrong. Or simply correct them.

You said you had a similar situation, could you explain it in detail please?

My coach mocks BJJ mainly because the people he had met of BJJ happened to be jackasses and believed that BJJ was above all and overcharged. Plus he also is very very good at newaza, i also thought of BJJ as simply butchered judo because of where i trained, but i realize that not all judo is newaza oriented and that not all BJJ sucks.

Basically he is BJJ BB level at newaza and he is very technical and has deep knowledge of the ground game.

The problem is that he thinks everyone in judo is as good as him at newaza and everyone in BJJ is as bad as the people he had experience with. Its nothing bad as getting mad at someone learning BJJ at all, he just said its a waste of time and money.

He of course mauls everyone that comes from BJJ in the ground, so he still thinks all BJJ sucks, he had a change of attitude after Fabricio subbed Fedor. But he is an special case, because as i mentioned he is a monster on the ground, and because he sees a lot of flaws in improperly learned BJJ.

crouch in tachi waza! that I can understand. are you actually allowed to crouch in Judo?

You can crouch on tachiwaza, but its not recommended and any good judoka will not be stopped by such actions, if anything it will make your lose less flashy. But at the same time limits your attack posibilities.

mocked for not doing kata??? LOL

Up to a point the lack of kata is slowly crippling in BJJ, katas ensure that proper technique is passed down through generations, and they are a reference point when there is doubt.

Its like wild corn, its obsolete and nobody crops it, but its a reserve of genes to make corn better.

I agree that It all sounds kind of wierd, and I'm getting the impression that my school must be very traditional compared to the norm. Another thing is that a long time ago we had student that got into an argument with other people because he was training bjj, and he ended up leaving our school. He was not a black belt, yet this still irks me. Do you guys think that me training BJJ could possibly cause anything as bad as this?

My school was very competitive, but we also respected traditions a lot. If you love judo you will come back to it.

I personally only like judo the way my old coach taught it to me, so i would rather go to BJJ that doing judo with some schools i don't like, i would still do judo so i don't lose what i learned. However i would also toss BJJ anyday and its pretty much what i did to go and train with my old coach.

Anyway in the end you are a shodan, start acting more like one and defend your choices intelligently. You should not be afraid of what other people think of you.

 

[FWTG]

The root cause of it gets down to more than just BJJ versus Judo. It's BJJ versus every other art.

Most other traditional minded guys in other arts hate BJJ too. Yet strangely, traditional minded guys in BJJ tend to hate other arts a lot less. I really think it comes down to insecurity in the end.

It's controversial to say it, but I think it's clear (whether people will openly admit it or not they tend to know it deep down) that BJJ fares particularly well against almost every other established style in a match. It is almost perfectly engineered to succeed in that particular situation. There's a lot more to effectiveness than just a one on one challenge match between practitioners, but that particular raw "who beats who" match up is a very sensitive subject to traditional martial artists. The fact that BJJ beats Judo, Karate, TKD, Muay Thai, etc., almost every time is a very sore spot.

You can even see it starting to happen with traditional BJJ guys now. Although there are no established arts that are seen as threats, the mixed philosophy of modern MMA does generate fighters who typically prevail over traditional BJJ guys in the challenge match up. This is why you see some of the older BJJ guys being dismissive of MMA as having too many rules to be practical (gloves, referee stand ups, banning certain strikes, etc.).

In the end, it's all the same insecure attitude. Whether it's a Judo guy claiming he'd kill you on concrete with his throw, or a Karate guy claiming he'd kill you with his punch before you could clinch with him, they are all aware that deep down they have had a weakness exposed. Non-traditional guys embrace this and are eager to cross train to fix it, but traditional guys are always going to react with bitterness.

Well put. This is it in nutshell. BJJ is very effective...really the most effective for 1 on 1 style vs style or against a single untrained opponent. Its tough as hell, you get manhandled when stating out...its generally not flashy at all and ultimatly your rolling aound with other guys on the ground when training. If it wasnt one of if not the most effective martial arts hardly anyone would do it.

 

[RacerX]

The IJF and some other powerful people in Judo don't seem to like newaza and are probaly mad because they are having it rubbed in their faces everytime someone says BJJ. Others are mad because the IJF et al. have atrophied Judo's newaza and BJJ reminds them of this. The later group should not be, and usually aren't, mad at BJJ people and will usually train with them. But a lot of Judo guys, regardless of their views on newaza, don't like certain people's self agrandizing. Which is unfortunate since the average BJJ guys aren't the problem.

 

[neandtachiwaza]

Don't go for pins? specify, if they are not going for pins in tournament mode randori, they are idiots, if they don't go for pins in newaza randori, its their problem.

People that go for 1 pin only in newaza are also not improving their game, in my judo school we had the 5 second rule, when we applied a pin, we would hold it for 5 seconds and then transition into another pin.



So? show them wrong, use footwork to throw them at will and if they crouch too much they are penalized, go for some yoko tomoe nage and they will learn that their stand up way is wrong. Or simply correct them.



My coach mocks BJJ mainly because the people he had met of BJJ happened to be jackasses and believed that BJJ was above all and overcharged. Plus he also is very very good at newaza, i also thought of BJJ as simply butchered judo because of where i trained, but i realize that not all judo is newaza oriented and that not all BJJ sucks.

Basically he is BJJ BB level at newaza and he is very technical and has deep knowledge of the ground game.

The problem is that he thinks everyone in judo is as good as him at newaza and everyone in BJJ is as bad as the people he had experience with. Its nothing bad as getting mad at someone learning BJJ at all, he just said its a waste of time and money.

He of course mauls everyone that comes from BJJ in the ground, so he still thinks all BJJ sucks, he had a change of attitude after Fabricio subbed Fedor. But he is an special case, because as i mentioned he is a monster on the ground, and because he sees a lot of flaws in improperly learned BJJ.



You can crouch on tachiwaza, but its not recommended and any good judoka will not be stopped by such actions, if anything it will make your lose less flashy. But at the same time limits your attack posibilities.



Up to a point the lack of kata is slowly crippling in BJJ, katas ensure that proper technique is passed down through generations, and they are a reference point when there is doubt.

Its like wild corn, its obsolete and nobody crops it, but its a reserve of genes to make corn better.



My school was very competitive, but we also respected traditions a lot. If you love judo you will come back to it.

I personally only like judo the way my old coach taught it to me, so i would rather go to BJJ that doing judo with some schools i don't like, i would still do judo so i don't lose what i learned. However i would also toss BJJ anyday and its pretty much what i did to go and train with my old coach.

Anyway in the end you are a shodan, start acting more like one and defend your choices intelligently. You should not be afraid of what other people think of you.

I posted here to get an idea of what others have gone through when training two martial arts, and I agree with you about what you say about not caring what other people say about me. However, I also think respect for what others in my club would think about me training in another martial art, is also something I should consider as a Shodan. I'm trying to approach this from all possible angles, and that is why I posted this.

 

[lechien]

No offense taken to the close minded school comment. I am not entirely sure that they will have issues with me crosstraining, and I guess the only way to find out is to do it. Does this really seem as crazy a story as you guys are making it out to be? I thought many clubs were very tight nit and looked down on crosstraining.

In BJJ, you can go and cross train...no problem.

the problem is when you want to go train BJJ in another academy.

never heard any unsecure statement against other MA in my BJJ club.

 

[lechien]

So? show them wrong, use footwork to throw them at will and if they crouch too much they are penalized, go for some yoko tomoe nage and they will learn that their stand up way is wrong. Or simply correct them.



My coach mocks BJJ mainly because the people he had met of BJJ happened to be jackasses and believed that BJJ was above all and overcharged. Plus he also is very very good at newaza, i also thought of BJJ as simply butchered judo because of where i trained, but i realize that not all judo is newaza oriented and that not all BJJ sucks.





He of course mauls everyone that comes from BJJ in the ground, so he still thinks all BJJ sucks, he had a change of attitude after Fabricio subbed Fedor. But he is an special case, because as i mentioned he is a monster on the ground, and because he sees a lot of flaws in improperly learned BJJ.



You can crouch on tachiwaza, but its not recommended and any good judoka will not be stopped by such actions, if anything it will make your lose less flashy. But at the same time limits your attack posibilities.


.

Ok, I am confused. you can crouch but not too much otherwise you are penalised. why the need to have the rule to penalise if any good judoka cannot be stop by such action.

Oh yes, your coach sounds like really insecure and reminds me of someone.

 

[nefti]

Rod1,
Judo in korea has little to no katas at all. Has this hurt the quality of judo comming out of korea?