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Traditional family values vs minimum wage and other living costs

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by legatoblues, Feb 7, 2020.

  1. legatoblues Green Belt

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    On these forums, I see what seems like many people rueing the loss of "traditional family values". Man, the provider. Wife, the carer. A strong, secure and loving family unit best equipped to give their children a wonderful and successful life.

    More women are entering the workforce, seeking careers over motherhood. People are moving from partner to partner without any sense of stability or direction. This way of living is becoming a thing of the past, with some believing that contributes to a decline in the overall strength of society, reducing quality of life for many.

    Why is this happening? It's a lifestyle that has become unobtainable for many. Wages vs cost of living mean that a single income family - the foundation of these traditional values - is an unsustainable and unrealistic scenario for many. The stay at home mother was possible because the father earned enough money to support himself, her, the child, their family. That isn't happening today.

    How can it be fixed? Higher wages and / or lower property prices.

    But this brings us to the point of this discussion - it seems to me thar those who yearn for the family model of old are also staunchly against causes such as increased minimum wage and affordable housing? How can someone take such a stance?

    Is the loss of traditional family values an important issue to you? And if it is, how does that compare to your position on wage growth and affordable housing?
     
  2. PlayswellwithLawnDarts Banned Banned

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    For most of America two incomes are required for the same standard of living Americans enjoyed half a century ago. It’s an economical conundrum.
     
  3. nostradumbass Steel Belt

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    Not really. The standard of living was muuuuch lower in past generations. This was more like 60 years ago, but in the late 50s/early 60s, 40% of household had no car, 1/3 didn't have a private phone line, almost nobody had dishwashers and washing machines, not very many even had hot water heaters.

    The median single family house 50 years ago was 1400 sq ft, now it's 2200 and almost all families have at least 1 car, usually 2, each individual has a phone, microwaves, dishwashers are pretty standard, television, internet, everybody has hot water and air conditioning. You could certainly live the same as someone in the 50s or 60s with the same job now, you just wouldn't like it very much.
     
  4. 44nutman The Original Nut of Sherdog

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    9 Commandment Trump Lickspittles only pretend to be Christians when talking about Muslims, otherwise they are Caferia Christians. They know the Bible but don't follow it.
     
  5. legatoblues Green Belt

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    I'd suggest that internet is almost a neccisity these days, workplaces have turned to online recruiting almost exclusively. On cars, what was the average commute like in the era you're referencing? Are people travelling further for work now than they used to, making a car an essential as well? What about public transport options, improvements there could help make a difference. The second car, kids are getting to school differently than what they used to. Walking or riding to school isn't really a thing anymore.

    How much of that comes down to personal choices made by the people were talking about, and how much is it society advancing as a whole?

    Assuming you're someone who wants to see more of the single income family unit, what do you see as the cause of it being less and less common?
     
  6. nostradumbass Steel Belt

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    Those things aren't essential, they're just convenient. You could easily use internet at the library or at starbucks, take the school bus or live closer to work and share a car. Society is certainly advancing, but it's keeping up with the Jones' that makes people live outside their means.

    The baby boomers ruined marriage and made divorce no big deal for middle class and up white people, welfare did it for black people and poorer whites, Asians and Jews still have no problem with it.

    The nuclear family with traditional roles still exists. Everybody with kids in even my extended family does it.
     
  7. legatoblues Green Belt

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    Saw the library comment coming. Really enjoyed jumping on the bus and going to the library as a kid.

    Not sure I can agree that living away from work is a choice though. In many situations, affordable rent and employment just aren't in the same location, necessitating extended commutes.

    What about hours worked? What sort of work/life balance could the father of a nuclear family expect in his day?
     
  8. kahiljabroni Black Belt

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    Its more advantageous than ever to have a good partner assuming that person also earns a living. It's common sense..combine your resources...save all you can before having a child....and only have the amount of kids that you can comfortably afford. If you postpone it long enough to save alot one of you may be able to stay home.
     
  9. nostradumbass Steel Belt

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    I'd say a better one than in the past. The average work week has certainly shrunk significantly. I doubt anyone's grandfather had time to shit post on karate forums and go to concerts and shit. Hell, going out to eat was a pretty big luxury until relatively recently.

    I'm not even arguing that things couldn't be better, I'm just saying that they never have been, and people harboring delusions about how much easier shit was in the 50s and 60s, and most certainly before then, are way off the mark. People work less, have more and spend far more frivolously than any past generation.
     

  10. People could not do that in my city even without all the niceties. You cannot even touch a home in this city for less that 300,000 and that is in the shitty part of town. My home is in the middle class or maybe slightly upper middle class was 470,000 dollars. Giving up a 300 dollar water heater is not going to fix that.

    You also cannot buy a small home here as they dont make them so that option is off the table too. Unless you are in the upscale areas where there are old homes that are small the tiniest house you can get here is 1600 square feet.

    In 1976 my dad made 23 dollars an hour as a union electrician. He bought a 2000 square foot home for 30,000 and a brand new Ford LTD for 4 to 6000. Now that same electrician makes 37 dollars an hour and the same house just sold for 300,000 dollars and the equivalent car is 30 to 40,000 dollars.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2020
  11. trac209 Red Belt

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    Stfu stupid
     
  12. legatoblues Green Belt

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    I don't really have a specific point to argue myself either. Certainly not here to say that anyone is "wrong" at all.

    I've seen extreme opposite examples in my personal life. One particular couple in their 30's, two happily married professionals, both earning great money, both the sort of people that would make wonderful parents. I keep waiting for it to happen, but who knows if it ever will. They say they're now saving for a home, but by the time that happens, will it be too late?

    On the extreme opposite end - my sister became a parent at age 20. My niece is nothing short of wonderful. I love that kid and I'm so proud to be her uncle. But at the same time...I worry for her. Her parents are basically kids themselves. They've never had real jobs, they're completely broke and I struggle to see a real future for them. How are you supposed to provide for your child when you can't provide for yourself?

    And then in the middle, friends who do have kids. I have a few like that, actually. Great couples, great kids. But none of them own homes, none of them are single income. The parents slave away to put food on the table whilst never having time with their kids, all the while paying off someone else's mortgage. I'm not sure i believe that's the best way for a family to be.
     
  13. superpunch Gold Belt

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    That's simply not true.

    You can easily afford to live how Americans lived half a century ago. Never eat out. Share a telephone with 20 other people. Drive a car that's just an engine with wheels. Use "hand-me-down" clothes for your kids. Have 1 car or no car. Don't have a dishwasher. Wash your clothes in a bathtub. Get rid of air conditioning. Live in a building made of stuff like asbestos and other cheap materials.

    What you really mean is you can't afford to eat out every day, have multiple phone plans for everyone in your family, have 2 cars with tons of extra features and airbags, a dishwasher, a washer/ dryer, and live in a comfortable apartment with air conditioning and heating on minimum wage. You never could do that on minimum wage.
     
  14. Misanthropist Green Belt

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    If that’s the ‘thing of the past’ then how do you explain Mormon, Muslim, Orthodox Jew, Hindu families and the likes that adhere to traditional family values in 2020 and still live fine?

    Big family, the better so you don’t need to worry when you have a financial backing.
     
  15. superpunch Gold Belt

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    That's how it's always been.

    We all like to think our parents were model people who had their shit together and completely planned to have us. In reality, they were mostly young and working shit jobs, got really drunk one night and had you unplanned and were terrified of how they would support you. Then they had the help of family friends, grandparents, etc. to help raise you while you motivated them to finally grow up and get their shit together to become the model family you remember from when you were old enough to be able to start forming memories.

    It's like I look at my parents. I remember growing up in a nice house with parents that had everything together and didn't even drink alcohol. That's how it was from when I was a bit older and that's all that I can actually remember. Go back to when I was born and I was a toddler though, if I could have understood my surroundings and formed memories then, I'd have memories of parents that could barely afford a small 1 BR apartment, were up to their eyeballs in debt, struggled to afford spaghetti, had to get their friends to help watch me, and still liked to go out and get drunk and party and shit on weekends. That's how it's always been.
     
  16. PlayswellwithLawnDarts Banned Banned

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    You made so many assumptions in this post it’s laughable. I never said anything even remotely close to what you are carrying on about.
    Pensions don’t exist any longer. College is no longer affordable to the working class, never said a word about minimum wage. Goods and services continue to escalate along with housing.
    Look at California. Lets not forget the escalated cost of childcare with two working parents required. I happen to cook most of my meals and don’t eat out enough. I Don’t live outside my means. Have two kids both with College Funds. Don’t drive new vehicles. I own my own home cause Apartments suck. But I really meant poor people should be able to live outside their means; and in no way was referring to the greatness of my country being made on the backs of the working class.
    Try again Kid
     

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