Top catch-as-catch-can/shoot-wrestling practicioners...?

[Half Boston Crab]

Bcva boxing:
what is''catch-as-catch-can''??
can someone explain?

"Catch as catch can" wrestling is old school professional wrestling, usually referring to how it was practised before World War II when it still hadn't developed into a fake wrestling show like the WWF and WCW today. It was similar to amateur wrestling, but it was also allowed to use a wider arsenal of joint locks to force your opponent to his back or submit him.

 

[Foolkiller]

Right, that's why I didn't include TK even though obviously he's trained with and been influenced by catch/shoot guys.

Someone had added him in a follow up post and has since deleted it. Nevermind.

 

[Bcva boxing]

thanks half boston crab

 

[Kforcer]

fujita also ?

He derived his submissions primarily from Marco Ruas, as I understand. Luta Livre is similar in many ways to catch, but is a different style.

 

[Half Boston Crab]

Gene Lebell trained with Ed "Strangler" Lewis.

 

[Kforcer]

Gene Lebell trained with Ed "Strangler" Lewis.

Right, the thing is, I was only mentioning people of the recent MMA generation. If you went back into Gene LeBelle's era, then there's no way we could compile a list...

 

[Mike.D]

Modern day catch grapplers?i can only name one.......

 

[Mike.D]

Me!

 

[flyingknee16]

on a side note, you can clearly see that genki has some VERY bjj instincts, especially when it comes to him pulling guard (which you almost never see cacc guys do).

 

[Kforcer]

on a side note, you can clearly see that genki has some VERY bjj instincts, especially when it comes to him pulling guard (which you almost never see cacc guys do).

Sure, but he also has some very pronounced catch instincts as well. You could call him a product of both worlds.

 

[zenshin]

Def. Eric paulson

 

[Yozigi]

Sato and Sakurai have a judo background, them at least I wouldn't list as "CACC" guys. There really aren't very many "CACC" stylists in the world and it's not like many of those people could really be called "CACC" -counting out the pro-wrestlers. But then again, Sakuraba has also trained judo when he was younger...

 

[Kforcer]

Sato and Sakurai have a judo background, them at least I wouldn't list as "CACC" guys. There really aren't very many "CACC" stylists in the world and it's not like many of those people could really be called "CACC" -counting out the pro-wrestlers. But then again, Sakuraba has also trained judo when he was younger...

Well, most Japanese train some judo as part of physical education in high school...but Sakuraba's first martial art, according to the horse's mouth, was wrestling. And he learned submissions, again, from the horse's mouth, from wrestling.

Judo background's don't really disqualify you from being characterized as a catch-wrestler...it depends on your approach. Most catch-wrestlers through history have had a prior grappling background, no? And considering how heavily influenced shoot-wrestling and Shooto is by catch-as-catch-can and also, just looking at their grappling style, I think there is a very sound foundation for characterizing Sakurai and Sato as CACC.

 

[flyingknee16]

Sure, but he also has some very pronounced catch instincts as well. You could call him a product of both worlds.

yeah... let's not forget his heel hooks and achilles that he always uses.

 

[Yozigi]

And considering how heavily influenced shoot-wrestling and Shooto is by catch-as-catch-can and also, just looking at their grappling style, I think there is a very sound foundation for characterizing Sakurai and Sato as CACC.

Sakurai for example goes (or at least went, did he retire now after the GP?) always for foot sweeps, some simple no-gi modifications of o-goshi and harai-goshi just like Parisyan to get into someones guard for g'n'p or to obtain sidemount. For example Hansen was thrown around like a rag doll. He has taught judo to the kids for example with Yoshida and Nakamura. Sorry, but there is no sound foundation to characterize him as "CACC". Neither is there for Sato.

To me CACC doesn't appear as anything more than submission wrestling and I'm not a total noob about Shooto. What it is exactly that you consider a "catch"-instinct? A more of an upward stance, weird looking submissions that no place in any competition unless the skill-difference between the competitors is beyond huge, or just not pulling the guard? Sure, some old-school pro-wrestlers (that may even have passed away a long time ago) can be considered as a real "CACC"-practitioners. But it's 2006 now, and the sport is called submission wrestling -has been called for years.

 

[Kforcer]

Sakurai for example goes (or at least went, did he retire now after the GP?) always for foot sweeps, some simple no-gi modifications of o-goshi and harai-goshi just like Parisyan to get into someones guard for g'n'p or to obtain sidemount. For example Hansen was thrown around like a rag doll. He has taught judo to the kids for example with Yoshida and Nakamura. Sorry, but there is no sound foundation to characterize him as "CACC". Neither is there for Sato.

To me CACC doesn't appear as anything more than submission wrestling and I'm not a total noob about Shooto. What it is exactly that you consider a "catch"-instinct? A more of an upward stance, weird looking submissions that no place in any competition unless the skill-difference between the competitors is beyond huge, or just not pulling the guard? Sure, some old-school pro-wrestlers (that may even have passed away a long time ago) can be considered as a real "CACC"-practitioners. But it's 2006 now, and the sport is called submission wrestling -has been called for years.

For both Sakurai and Sato, there is plenty of foundation for it. And as far as judo barring you from being considered catch-as-catch-can, Parisyan is clearly a judoka, but also well-versed in CACC, as you can see from his great wrestling skills and his extended knowledge of seperators and neck-cranks, learned from the master of both catch and judo, Gene LeBelle(tutored in catch by Ed Lewis). In fact, considering Ad Santel's interaction with judo in his many battles with judo blackbelts from Japan, as well as Kimura's own training with a black American boxer and catch-wrestler, its likely that the two sports influenced one another somewhat.

The distinction between catch-as-catch-can and jiu-jitsu is the emphasis on aggression, on opening up submissions by pushing the pace and the use of takedowns, throws and wrestling...as well as a greater emphasis on leglocks, seperators and often-times neck-cranks...but I think the greatest differences--as someone whose submission-base derives itself mostly from catch-as-catch-can(though the first place I really studied submissions was in judo)--is the aggressive pace of catch-as-catch-can and the blending of wrestling skills and submission skills into essentially a single package; at Dan Severn's Michigan Sports Camp, we have yet to begin our grappling from the knees, for example.

As far as shoot-wrestling goes, you could argue it is not catch-as-catch-can, but ultimately, its at least a modernized descendent of it, by the lineage of who-taught-who alone.

 

[Kforcer]

Out of curiousity...where did you get the idea that an "upward stance" was a catch-instinct? If anything, a catch-as-catch-can fighter would have a lower stance, all the better to shoot.

 

[Yozigi]

I have been left with the image that the stereotypical "cath-wrestler" would have more of an upward stance than a stereotypical BJJ'er/subwrestler. Now I don't mean that kind of a old-school judo stance but something between between that and what BJJ'ers/subwrestlers many times have (almost butt-scooting).

Anyway, still considering Sakurai as a cath-wrestler rather than a judoka is just not right. Gomi trained with Keiji Suzuki before their fight because "they have a smiliar stance".

 

[Masakatsu Funaki #1]

Sato and Sakurai have a judo background, them at least I wouldn't list as "CACC" guys. There really aren't very many "CACC" stylists in the world and it's not like many of those people could really be called "CACC" -counting out the pro-wrestlers. But then again, Sakuraba has also trained judo when he was younger...

Rumina Sato has direct lineage to CACC, and could easily be considered a Catch Wrestler, with BJJ influence. Sato trained directly under Satoru Sayama, who was trained in Catch by one of the few remaining Catch Wrestlers, Karl Gotch. Have you ever seen Combat Wrestling? Rumina shows some nice Catch psychology in pretty much all his bouts. Also, watch some of his older Shooto bouts, before the BJJ wae hit Japan, very catch oreinted.

You did come correct with your statements on Sakurai though. I wouldn't call Sakurai a Catch Wrestler. He uses some Catch moves, but his base isn't really catch. He looks alot more Judo, with some BJJ/Catch influences, rather than vice versa.

There are still a good amount of CACC stylists in the world. Pancrase and Shooto probably have the most legit Catchers at the moment. Some older promotions that had many Catch Wrestlers, where: UWF, UWFi, RINGS, PWFG, KINGDOM, SAW, BattleArts, etc.

Sakuraba was a wrestler since day one. Outside of doing PE Judo, he has no connections to the sport. Thats like calling be a baseball player, only because I played baseball in PE a few times. So that logic doesn't even work!

 

[Masakatsu Funaki #1]

Also, if you want to see modern day catch wrestling, watch Combat Wrestling. Combat Wrestling is exactly what Catch is about.