HWs generally aren't too good on their backs, because of their weight and gravity, but there were some who said: "F*ck gravity." 1. Werdum (it reached mythical levels) 2. Minotauro (prime Minotauro's guard was sick and he had the chin to make it impossible to beat him there) 3. Fedor (In his prime, he was less active then Werdum and Minotauro, but he knew what he was doing and was great at conserving energy, defending and evading attacks and exploding at the right time to escape, reverse or submit people) 4. Mir (great submissions, but worse defense than Fedor) 5. Funaki (34 career submissions, many vs great fighters, I rank him at 5, because he didn't have to deal with closed fisted GNP and great wrestlers) 6. Bas (Incredibly for a fighter who had 15 wins via submission, Rutten never attempted a single takedown in his entire career. Clearly, "El Guapo" had a unique and extremely effective style. attempted a record 53 submissions and successfully swept his opponents a record 46 times) 7. Suzuki (21 submission wins, Suzuki has been praised many times by elite fighters such as Josh Barnett, Bas Rutten, and Ken Shamrock for his outstanding grappling and submission skills) 8. Barnett (20 submission wins, very good of his back for a big guy) 9. Monson (ADCC great, I don't think I need to add much, he isn't higher, because he is more a top guy) 10. CC (prime CC had an awesome defensive guard, I would rate him higher, but he has no subs from his back) Honorable mentions: Cain (impressed me vs Brock). Oliynyk (41 submission wins of all kinds, but the competition doesn't allow me to put him higher), Yoshida (very good of his back, used his gi a lot though) What do you guys think?
I like your list... Also, you'll get laughed at, but kudos for adding CC at #10, his groundgame is horribly underrated and has great defense from the back.
That is, indeed, a great call. Very few people have ever mounted crocop. Same goes for Wanderlei. Barnett, with his foundation in catch, is more mountable than both (crocop even mounted him quite easily), but his submissions are so good that he's just much better overall. Werdum is easily the best. Nog has beautiful bjj- subs and sweeps- but Werdum is just simply the best... he's a stronger, better Nog.
may not agree with all, but i like it because it's bold and controversial, although not without valid arguments to back them up... and on the whole the list shows an in-depth knowledge of mma
It depends of what you mean "from their backs". Guys like Barnett and Monson, never, and I mean never fight off their backs, their whole bottom games consist of either sweeping or scrambling and reshooting. Cro Cop also was very capable of defending against lower level guys but never had anything going at all against any decent grappler. Mir for as dangerous as he is, shines in scrambles (and is good getting them) but is not much of a guard player and his been neutralized and smashed while on his back quite a few times. I rate Struves bottom game higher than most of the people on your list, to be honest. Also if we're considering sweepers, Gonzaga has to be considered.
I don't really care about stupid people laughing at me CC impressed the crap out of me with his guard in Pride. The stupid unified rules basically took his killer upkicks from him, which is horrible. He used his legs perfectly in Pride: [YT]watch?v=aRnovrOR2Yw[/YT] He survived Barnett and beat him on the ground. He did amazingly well vs Fedor. He beat Sakuraba with punches from his back. Very underrated if you ask me.
I would agree, but since sweeps are very important for guys like Barnett and Monson, I rank them higher than Struve. I thought about him, but others impressed me more overall vs tougher competition. Struve and Schilt both impressed me off their backs. Struve more so than Schilt, but still. Schilt is underrated too IMO. OH. I forgot to mention Herring. He impressed me a lot with his scrambles and tougness.
It is a dropoff after the first 4 guys on the list, beyond that I would suggest Yoshida probably deserves to be there somewhere. As far as the top goes I would say Werdum and Nog are very close, in terms of looking for triangles and armbars from their backs I think both are excellent. I would say though that Nog was a bit better at hitting sweeps from his back and in grabbing subs during transitions. Werdum's edge in BJJ overall is IMHO based on also having an excellent positional game when ontop.
Schilt was surprisingly decent, good call. Also agree with Herring. I think the metagame was more focused on scrambling than takedown defense, also takedown defense in higher weight classes is highly dependent on the cage and fighting for underhooks there, something that wasn't viable in the Pride ring. Overeem had a decent guard when he was a LHW, I wonder if that part of his game is still there now that he's huge and doesn't get taken down.
I think Struve could make a case for top 10, offensively anyway. Has 3 submissions from his back, probably the most for a heavyweight in UFC history?
Great list, but I would put Nelson up there somewhere in at least the top mention. I do not recall any MMA fighter getting Big Country in ANY challenge on the ground including Werdum, Mir, Cro Cop & Big Nog whom he fought on your list. Also I think the Reem deserves a shout out.
I agree 100%. While obviously most HW's would STRONGLY prefer working from the top, I think both Mir and Barnett however are exceptionally high on that top control element. I seriously doubt either would offer the Reem a free spot in their open guard!:icon_chee
