"To gi or not to gi" by Cesar Gracie

[Nick Kilian]

Actually no, having the handles of a jacket to grab makes a huge difference in both throwing and submissions. You can try this out yourself - find someone of about your strength, size, agility, and skill, and grapple them (starting on your feet, not worrying about anything but getting the sub), where you're wearing a gi and they're going no-gi. You'll find that they're able to control you much better than you can control them.

This is something anyone who for instance has done a fair amount of both judo and wrestling knows - the gi/jacket makes a huge difference because of the grips it allows, and thus the control it gives.

Actually Yes, First of all you assume someone has a jacket. Second of all I stated Nogi take down would be just easy as a judo throw with someone's sleeves.

 

[dza76wutang]

How many people even do BJJ for "teh streetz"? Seriously.

There's sport grappling (NAGA, GQ), MMA grappling and Self-Defense.

While I'm sure plenty of people blend categories or have multiple interests the majority of people I have ever met in my time grappling are in the first category, a lot of people are in the second category (however, more often than not they are first category guys who like MMA, I only know a small handful of MMA from day one guys), and I have yet to meet someone doing it solely for self-defense.

I always saw being able to handle an altercation outside of the gym as a fringe benefit to my sport, sort of like being intimidating and avoiding fights is a fringe benefit to lifting weights.

Another thing these debates always neglect is that we are a mere sliver of the population. The probability of bumping into a trained fighter WHO also wants to fight you at a bar or mug you on the street is absurdly low, and as you get better at it (blue, purple, brown, black, etc) the probability that your assailant is trained AND better than you further diminishes the odds you're getting wrecked outside the gym. If you second guess your own ability to handle yourself outside the gym, find a new guy (they usually don't own gis yet) and roll with him, start mounted, back mounted, side mounted, in your favorite guard, in your weakest guard, in his guard, on top-side, on top-mounted, standing. If his gross motor skills and untrained instincts enable him to win, ok, you need more general BJJ practice, if you win, guess what, he's probably accurately representing the run of the mill opponent you'll butt heads with in the street.

With or without the gi, it's a martial art, we win without striking, and we bring a whole arsenal of techniques that less than 1% of the entire population can cope with.

So train what you enjoy and focus on that. I like the gi, it's more fun for me.

 

[georgejjr]

Actually Yes, First of all you assume someone has a jacket.

Well, that's the the point of this discussion. In some parts of the world people wear jackets 9 months of the year. Put it this way, I'd fight Brock Lesnar outside at -40 if all he had on is a t-shirt and he had to wait for me to walk by to mug me (say 30 minutes or so). Of course the fight would just consist of me calling 911 for an ambulance, because he would be severely frost bitten, hypothermic, and most likely unconscious before I even got there. In some climates people do wear jackets when robbing/mugging people.

Second of all I stated Nogi take down would be just easy as a judo throw with someone's sleeves.

And that's simply wrong. How much judo and wrestling have you done? I wrestled in college before starting judo, and what I found in the transition was the same as every other wrestler - the gi changes things. Its why you can't simply take a wrestling gold medalist and put him into Olympic judo (which should work according to your theory, if the gi doesn't change things).

Gripping is a big part of both judo and wrestling (ie gi and no-gi), but they're different. Gi gripping gives much more solid grips and controls, so if its available (ie the person is wearing a jacket) you're way better off using it. And those grips changes the way the throws are done. This becomes more important as you go to higher level ... against recreational judoka/high school wrestlers the changes aren't so important. Go against college level wrestlers/national level judoka and the differences between gi and no-gi are huge.

Though in deference to the post above, I'll admit the chances of being attacked by a college level wrestler or national level judoka are pretty small :icon_chee

When I do no-gi I use wrestling takedowns, when I do gi I use judo judo throws. Outside, if people are wearing t-shirts I use wrestling takedowns, if they're wearing jackets I use judo throws - if someone gives me a handle (ie a jacket) I'm going to use it to throw them.

 

[JRT6]

No gi judo you have to wait till the opponent comes to you or you have to somehow get him moving in your direction. In gi judo you can just pull and direct the opponents movements with his gi-obviously. Grabbing clothing on the street makes for great handles for at least trips. Even most tee shirts will hold up unless the opponent is wearing a classic tear away football jersey that Greg Pruitt wore in the 70's.

 

[Nick Kilian]

Well, that's the the point of this discussion. In some parts of the world people wear jackets 9 months of the year.

You are proving my point. You are saying BJJ with GI is somehow more effective than Nogi because you might be in a place where people wear jackets 9 months out of the year..... Why not nogi all the time and become effective with that system since you could do it with a jacket and without?

And that's simply wrong. How much judo and wrestling have you done?

I've also wrestled in college and I've been doing gi training for about 3.5 years. All I am stating is this "you need GI for self defense street fighting" is hogwash when it is just as easy and effective to use no-gi moves. Seriously how much easier is a nice 10 finger guillotine than having to grab his sleeves(hoping he doesn't grab yours because it could become problematic), Judo throwing him, and going for an armbar?

 

[georgejjr]

You are proving my point. You are saying BJJ with GI is somehow more effective than Nogi because you might be in a place where people wear jackets 9 months out of the year..... Why not nogi all the time and become effective with that system since you could do it with a jacket and without?

Actually what I'm saying is that you need to do both (not surprising since I'm both judoka and wrestler :icon_chee). Gi based work for the times when your attacker is wearing a jacket, no-gi for when they don't.

I've also wrestled in college and I've been doing gi training for about 3.5 years. All I am stating is this "you need GI for self defense street fighting" is hogwash when it is just as easy and effective to use no-gi moves. Seriously how much easier is a nice 10 finger guillotine than having to grab his sleeves(hoping he doesn't grab yours because it could become problematic), Judo throwing him, and going for an armbar?

If you've wrestled in college then you know what I mean when I say gripping is a huge element in both gi and no-gi throws/takedowns, and you'll know how different both are ... and that a gi grip is usually stronger than a no-gi grip. Which means, if you want to do a throw or takedown, the gi grip one will be more efficient if there is a gi (or jacket) to grip.

Now you could argue that on the street the extra 25% (arbitrary number for illustration purposes) efficiency that comes from a jacket throw doesn't matter, because you're not likely going to be fighting a national level judoka or college level wrestler - that is, you're not going to need that extra 25% against someone with no takedown defense (same reason most judo guys can throw people on the street even if there are no jackets despite not practicing no-gi ... against most people anyone who trains any kind of grappling is going to find it easy to get a throw). But in terms of ultimate efficiency, you're best off using the throws designed for the conditions.

Wrestling takedowns were designed for no-gi, judo throws for jackets. If no jacket is there, wrestling takedowns work better, but if there is a jacket, judo throws work better.

Could your typical college wrestler takedown a non-grappler wearing a jacket? Easily. Could your typical national level judoka throw a non-grappler not wearing a jacket? Easily. So you could argue it doesn't matter which you do. But for peak efficiency you use the tool designed for the circumstance.

 

[newerest]

this is ridiculous

people are seriously saying that you would have to train in a gi to deal with the very small self defense issue of someone grabbing you on your shirt on the streets and attacking you.

do you honestly think someone untrained in judo would be able to use the shirt against me?

 

[Chalito]

Very well put. To be a balanced grappler you must train in both gi and nogi.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

This thread still going. Cool...

Does anybody else say "gi less" as opposed to no gi?

I usually just wear my rashguard under my gi. What if wore my rash guard over my gi? Would that still be no gi?

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

To be balanced at all, you should train in everything....if being balanced is your goal.

I train gi, nogi, judo, occasionally wrestling (seminars) and kick boxing.

My expectation is that this makes me balanced.

That being said, I freely admit that I am not enamored with no gi, wrestling or kick boxing in any way (well...I like leg kicks and upper cuts...), so they get much less of my attention than GI BJJ and Judo.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

To be balanced at all, you should train in everything....if being balanced is your goal.

I train gi, nogi, judo, occasionally wrestling (seminars) and kick boxing.

My expectation is that this makes me balanced.

That being said, I freely admit that I am not enamored with no gi, wrestling or kick boxing in any way (well...I like leg kicks and upper cuts...), so they get much less of my attention than GI BJJ and Judo.

That looks like a well balanced diet. I like to get in the ring once and a while.

Your goals will change over the years. Just keep flowing...

 

[redaxe]

Does anybody else say "gi less" as opposed to no gi?

Personally I like "gi free" or there's always "sem kimono"

 

[lechien]

This thread still going. Cool...

Does anybody else say "gi less" as opposed to no gi?

I usually just wear my rashguard under my gi. What if wore my rash guard over my gi? Would that still be no gi?

We use the term NOGI but I prefer using the gi less term.

The term Nogi has now been adopted by a lot of people that do NOT train BJJ.

We should keep Gi less as the term for describing training BJJ without the GI.

and leave the term NOGI to whatever.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

That looks like a well balanced diet. I like to get in the ring once and a while.

Your goals will change over the years. Just keep flowing...

I have this feeling that I'm a lot older than you think I am.....I don't have all that many years left.

 

[BruceOnJuice]

Great read!! I don't see how anybody can think training in both would be a bad thing. At my school we have no-gi twice a week. I love having a mix of gi and no-gi in my training.

 

[RibCrusher**]

You are proving my point. You are saying BJJ with GI is somehow more effective than Nogi because you might be in a place where people wear jackets 9 months out of the year..... Why not nogi all the time and become effective with that system since you could do it with a jacket and without?




I've also wrestled in college and I've been doing gi training for about 3.5 years. All I am stating is this "you need GI for self defense street fighting" is hogwash when it is just as easy and effective to use no-gi moves. Seriously how much easier is a nice 10 finger guillotine than having to grab his sleeves(hoping he doesn't grab yours because it could become problematic), Judo throwing him, and going for an armbar?

ok,

first off -- a gi is not like real clothing: if gi was as thin as real clothing you would be buying new ones every week so yes a gi must be thick to withstand training. but i would say gi pants are a lot like jeans in strength and people wear that shit all the time. believe me.

Also, the best competitors in in nogi contests like ADCC train more in a gi than without or maybe close to 50/50.
the best black belts in the world say training in gi makes tightens up your game.
now, would i believe Roger Gracie or some "amateur fighter"?
I think roger gracie.

but it is all subjective if anyone says training in gi will make you better when you take off the gi. So all you really have to OBJECTIVELY go on is the facts which is competition wins. Who won ADCC, oh yeah that was Roger and his gi training ass.

Some people say gi is easier because it slows things down. It slows things down but does not make it easy. Is it easy to have to keep your lapels out of reach so you don't get choked. Is it easier to pass when the guy that has guard is ripping you off balance with damn gi grips you cannot break.

Wearing a gi is not like training wheels like some say.

Wearing a gi is like wearing a 100 pound flak jacket. It is much harder. But if you train wearing a 100 pound flak jacket, just think how much better you will be when you take it off.

Also, you can do a 10 finger guillotine if you are both wearing a gi. i know, it is weird, but trust me you can.


So can this please end this stupid training gi does not make you a grappler bullshit?
every few days someone makes this thread to start shit.

again, if you are considering making this topic again, go look up the ADCC champs and maybe start a GJJ is better than BJJ thread. You have a better chance of not being completely and totally wrong with factual proof to back it up.

Toodles.

- A Friend

 

[JRT6]

My training schedule is dictated by my work schedule therefore if the class I can go to is gi or gi-less that's the way it is.

 

[Bunique4life05]

Second, I disagree that "the top MMA grapplers were all at one time gi- wearing champions". I certainly don't need to run down the list of dominant wrestlers in MMA, the vast majority of whom have little to no gi training. In fact, I would even go so far as to argue that wrestlers have been more dominant in MMA overall than BJJ practitioners, especially over the last several years.

Why is because the wrestlers have trained in BJJ and the same goes for the BJJ practitioners that dominate wrestlers because they both cross train. Why have wrestlers predominately be dominating you say is the majority have already have wrestling background. But the majority BJJ practitioners many are just starting BJJ or not a provision-ate level for mma.

Why do people just see black and white but never see the gray area in between.

Did not too long ago two of the biggest heavy weights go at it and one guy won by arm triangle.

 

[jonnyquick]

Why is because the wrestlers have trained in BJJ and the same goes for the BJJ practitioners that dominate wrestlers because they both cross train. Why have wrestlers predominately be dominating you say is the majority have already have wrestling background. But the majority BJJ practitioners many are just starting BJJ or not a provision-ate level for mma.

Why do people just see black and white but never see the gray area in between.

Did not too long ago two of the biggest heavy weights go at it and one guy won by arm triangle.

I thought he won by arm triangle:icon_chee

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

all i gotta say is that there are a lot of throws u dont really need a jacket or gi for. you can do the same techniques as long as you grab a little differently. like if i was tied up wiht someone and i gripped the back of their collar and some clothing in forn of the elbow. Now without the gi all you gotta do is grab behind the head and grab on the elbow and you still have a good enough grip to do a throw.

alot of you obviously know this, but i was just saying that for those who obviously dont