To be honest, I always saw Usyk as being better than Loma

[Seano]

He's a tough guy to hit, has a very creative and sneaky offense, great footwork, slippery angles and more. It isn't just the speed.

What if you took away his speed. Would those things still work for him?

 

[ironfist05]

What if you took away his speed. Would those things still work for him?

he'd be a different fighter entirely and that's kind of a pointless question to ask because htere's no way of knowing.

 

[Seano]

he'd be a different fighter entirely and that's kind of a pointless question to ask because htere's no way of knowing.

OK, lets says when he gets old and slows down. Will it hurt his style?

 

[ironfist05]

OK, lets says when he gets old and slows down. Will it hurt his style?

I can't think of many fighters who get better when they get older and slow down.

 

[Seano]

I can't think of many fighters who get better when they get older and slow down.

Floyd, maybe.

 

[ironfist05]

Floyd, maybe.

disagree there, Floyd was murdering people at 130 and 140 (though he wasn't as good at infighting at 130) and was always defensively sound, regardless the division. Hopkins or Calzaghe are possible answers, maybe somebody like Wonjongkam in the lower weight classes. However, all of those guys grew technically as they declined physically. It's rare to see fighters get better as they get older and physically decline.

 

[deucesarewild]

In a big win or a big loss we start to revise old facts, but nothing changed before last Saturday (which can be seen as a 7 to 5 or 8 to 4 fight with some close rounds). Teofimo isn't some flawless boxing God that we didn't see before and Lomachenko isn't a sham. A good smaller guy was punching above his weight for a while and it caught up with him against a talented younger fighter who had a shorter layoff.

 

[deucesarewild]

Sure he did, thats why he got smacked around like he never has before in the 12th round.He couldn't do shit until late middle rounds, when Teofimo gassed a little. As soon as he caught his second wind it was the same fight.
He couldn't figure out Lopez's counter right hand all night, which was why he never got into second gear. No answer for the body punches at all. Did nothing with Lopez's aggression besides turtle up.
The guy is a frontrunner, who had that taken away from him.

Lomachenko is the opposite of a frontrunner. He builds traction and becomes an eroding force against his opponent. Him not being able to build momentum and wear down Lopez is the opposite of a front runner.

 

[Seano]

Lomachenko is the opposite of a frontrunner. He builds traction and becomes an eroding force against his opponent. Him not being able to build momentum and wear down Lopez is the opposite of a front runner.

I'm talking front runner in the sense that he has to be in control. When he's not he can't adjust.

 

[ironfist05]

I'm talking front runner in the sense that he has to be in control. When he's not he can't adjust.

Loma didn't look at all like a frontrunner in this fighter. Neither guy did.

 

[deucesarewild]

I'm talking front runner in the sense that he has to be in control. When he's not he can't adjust.

Okay, that's imposing your will, not being a frontrunner. But I see what you mean now.

I think Lomachenko did adjust by 7 or 8. I don't think it was all in Teofimo tiring. I think it's both. If they rematch we might get a better idea about how well Lomachenko can adjust.

I think Teofimo fought a subtle effective fight, but he might not get full credit for the simple tricks to win.

 

[JayE]

disagree there, Floyd was murdering people at 130 and 140 (though he wasn't as good at infighting at 130) and was always defensively sound, regardless the division. Hopkins or Calzaghe are possible answers, maybe somebody like Wonjongkam in the lower weight classes. However, all of those guys grew technically as they declined physically. It's rare to see fighters get better as they get older and physically decline.

Hopkins probably peaked in his early to mid 30s, which is very rare.

 

[ironfist05]

Hopkins probably peaked in his early to mid 30s, which is very rare.

yeah can't think of many other guys who got better as they got older.

 

[JayE]

yeah can't think of many other guys who got better as they got older.

Yeah, with Hopkins it was him prolonging his physical peak (or being as close to it as can be possibly expected at that age) while his skills fully matured. He was still able to box on the backfoot and throw ~700 punches while stopping his man at the age of 36 against Trinidad. Pretty remarkable, even allowing for any talk of doping.

 

[ironfist05]

Yeah, with Hopkins it was him prolonging his physical peak (or being as close to it as can be possibly expected at that age) while his skills fully matured. He was still able to box on the backfoot and throw ~700 punches while stopping his man at the age of 36 against Trinidad. Pretty remarkable, even allowing for any talk of doping.

has hopkins been accused of juicing? I've never heard that. He's not a particularly big guy and he's known to be incredibly disciplined with his diet (read an interview with him a while back where joked that if he gets crazy he "eats Italian... carbonara pasta... but hold the wine!").

 

[svmVR2097]

yeah can't think of many other guys who got better as they got older.

Vitali maybe?

 

[JayE]

has hopkins been accused of juicing? I've never heard that. He's not a particularly big guy and he's known to be incredibly disciplined with his diet (read an interview with him a while back where joked that if he gets crazy he "eats Italian... carbonara pasta... but hold the wine!").

Pascal did and a lot of people used his longevity as justification. There's no evidence in the form of connections to labs or clinics, questionable results, etc.. My view is always that pretty much anyone in the modern era deserves some skepticism, but no amount of doping would make Hopkins much less remarkable. It is widely accepted that he maintained an insanely Spartan lifestyle throughout his career, just as you said. Well above and beyond the norm.

 

[JayE]

Vitali maybe?

Come to think of it, Wlad probably peaked in his early to mid 30s, too. Vitali's chronic injuries probably slowed him down a lot as he got into his later 30s after the first retirement. He was just still better than the average HW competition at the time.

 

[Seano]

Pascal did and a lot of people used his longevity as justification. .

TAKE THE TEST! TAKE THE TEST!

 

[deucesarewild]

Hopkins probably peaked in his early to mid 30s, which is very rare.

A number of trainers would say that early 30's (32-ish max) is the best combo of maturity, experience, aptitiude, while still having physical capability. 20's are the physical prime but mentally unrefined. So, Hopkins would be the norm. What makes him not the norm is for how long he was able to extend his peak performances, and, in fact, that most of his best name wins came after what should be a boxers apex. Alien, indeed.