TKDlers'

[thecas]

i was actually thinking of taking up TKD coz like the spining back thrust has been showin to be able to KO pple[In UFC but I cant remember the fighters]. However, there is a problem.

With the TKD's almost perpendicular stance, how do you all check a roundhouse to the side where your back is in? And if you were to say just adjust back to a square stance in a real fight, won't it be cumbersome since you have to adjust for all the kicks you have learnt in TKD.

 

[fenderbender4]

I think if you're going to get into MMA you'd need to adjust and adapt the stance.

 

[Tim Chan]

i've seen tkd guys use various stances/footwork. some schools train differently or they come from diff backgrounds. some clubs may not allow using your prefered stance.

 

[P-Town BeatDown]

The stance and block/avoidance techs that are most effective in competitive TKD will probably not work at all in MMA. Most of the blocks are geared toward protecting the "scoring zones" which are the front of the upper torso and head. Not to mention punches aren't even allowed. Offensively, the modern competitive TKD stance (which seems to be what most teach nowadays) is meant for you to be able to get off a front or rear round kick as fast as possible, almost ignoring power completely. You actually want to reach as far as you can with your leg and "slap" with the foot in the scoring area. Think of it as fencing with your feet.

This tech. is not very effective in an MMA fight as most will shurg it off and exploit the opening. The kicks themselves though can be very effective. I actually posted a vid of this as an example in another thread.

 

[P-Town BeatDown]

i was actually thinking of taking up TKD coz like the spining back thrust has been showin to be able to KO pple[In UFC but I cant remember the fighters]. However, there is a problem.

With the TKD's almost perpendicular stance, how do you all check a roundhouse to the side where your back is in? And if you were to say just adjust back to a square stance in a real fight, won't it be cumbersome since you have to adjust for all the kicks you have learnt in TKD.

In the UFC, GSP landed a good SBK a couple times, and I believe Loiseau ended a fight with one in UFC 53. MT's stance is condusive to this kick as well (same set up as a backfist), and is much better suited to defend the techniques you will see in MMA.

 

[Wertbag]

The stances do differ, at the club I go to (ITF style TKD) the stance is not fully side on to your opponent. You do put your left shoulder, arm and leg towards your target, but the shoulders are around a 45 degree angle not fully turned.
A kick towards your back can be countered several ways. Slide your back right foot to your right, your stance stays the same but their target is now your arm/side.
Use your left arm to push/block while staying mobile and either circle or close the distance.
Step or jump right (dodge) and their target is no longer where they aimed.

Turning to fully face simply means the kick will head towards your ribs rather than your back, you'll still get hit hard doing that (as per Cro Cop vs De Silva). You've got to keep moving, rotating and changing distance, if you know the range of kicks you can work to control the distance and avoid being setup for them.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

i was actually thinking of taking up TKD coz like the spining back thrust has been showin to be able to KO pple[In UFC but I cant remember the fighters]. However, there is a problem.

With the TKD's almost perpendicular stance, how do you all check a roundhouse to the side where your back is in? And if you were to say just adjust back to a square stance in a real fight, won't it be cumbersome since you have to adjust for all the kicks you have learnt in TKD.

Good questions, see the Muay Thai + boxing threads for some thoughts on stance+footwork+kicking.

The reason many fighters use the sideway stance is that it allows you to turn both ways. You can do a back leg roundhouse and a back leg back kick equally fast, and for a kicking game, this is very good. The kidney (back) side is protected either by evasive footwork, or by blocking it with the extended front arm. The back elbow comes to your front shoulder to protect the face. You have to remember that TKD fighters like fighting at long distance, so if you're in a kicking range, you are not in punching range, so you have fewer options to cover.

This sideways stance is very good for footwork (many boxers also use a very sideways stance because it enables them to use angles), but it is dangerous for sparring with low kicks. That's where a more frontal stance comes in.

Frontal stance is good for punching (both jab and cross have good power), and you can still deliver good kicks with the back leg, but you can't do spinning kicks (back kick, spinning hook kick), and your lateral movement is somewhat impaired. Also, you expose a large surface of your body, including both your liver and kidneys, so you have to have a very good guard and good blocks if you want to use this.

The truth is, that most martial arts (including Muay Thai, boxing, TKD, karate, etc.) have different stances, and that a lot of it is preference of the fighter. Muay Thai fighters TEND to stand more frontally, TKD fighters tend to stand more sideways, boxers come in all shapes and colours, from full frontal to full sideways. In a good school, you will learn about this, and be allowed to develop your own stance which best fits YOUR game, your strengths and your expectations.

Having said that, you'll have to understand the differences. If you stand sideways, you will have to have a good sense of distance and good footwork. You'll have to evade low kicks by footwork, and either stay out of range or jam the opponent immediately after he tries to unload with punches. But you'll have a very deceptive kicking game, and be able to come with all sorts of kicks at any time, and your cross will be a KO blow due to all the extra kick motion. A frontal stance is more solid and powerful, but more stationary, at least in my humble experience. It's better for punching, but you have to have good blocks.

So, if you want to add TKD kicking skills, a lot will depend on your stance, and how you fight. Switching to a completely sideways stance just before you kick is so obvious that you'll never get away with it. So if you want a more frontal stance in your MMA/MT matches, you'll have to invest a lot of work in your footwork and deceptive stance changes. Then the kicks become parts of larger combinations, where previous moves disguise subtle stance changes.

A very good example is the Loiseau-McCarthy match. Loiseau has a rather frontal stance, fakes a left hook with the front hand, and moves his left leg to the right. When McCarthy counters with the overhand right, he doesn't notice that Loiseau's front leg has moved during the hook, and Loiseau is standing almost sideways. From there, he can launch the back kick that finished the match.

So, it's possible to do kicks like that, even from "the MMA stance", but you'll have to be sneaky with your footwork, and think in combinations instead of single kicks.

Hope that helps.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

The stance and block/avoidance techs that are most effective in competitive TKD will probably not work at all in MMA. Most of the blocks are geared toward protecting the "scoring zones" which are the front of the upper torso and head. Not to mention punches aren't even allowed. Offensively, the modern competitive TKD stance (which seems to be what most teach nowadays) is meant for you to be able to get off a front or rear round kick as fast as possible, almost ignoring power completely. You actually want to reach as far as you can with your leg and "slap" with the foot in the scoring area. Think of it as fencing with your feet.

I partly agree.

First of all, modern TKD is becoming less power oriented, but this is also changing. There are oscillations, based on recent competition trends, and it happens that sometimes a new strategy comes which overwhelms power kickers with speed, so the game changes towards speed and less power to counteract this, until a country comes with powerful kickers again, and the balance swings back. TKD kicks still have plenty of power in competition.

What you said about blocking, I don't completely agree. Of course the defense against kicks will work wonderfully in MMA, especially the evasive footwork. On the other hand, you cannot really block punches the same way, and you don't get the funky combos and setups in MMA that you get in modern TKD, so some skills may be unnecessary, while others are lacking, from an MMA point of view. The boxing guard is excellent for defending punches when you can't adjust the distance, and many TKD fighters lack in this area.

In the UFC, GSP landed a good SBK a couple times, and I believe Loiseau ended a fight with one in UFC 53. MT's stance is condusive to this kick as well (same set up as a backfist), and is much better suited to defend the techniques you will see in MMA.

I completely disagree. You can't use back kicks, hook kicks or axe kicks from such a stance.

The only reason GSP and Crow landed those kicks was that they set them up with footwork, which landed them in a different stance by the time they launched the kick.

 

[P-Town BeatDown]

I think we actually are saying the same thing here, I was just much less articulate...

What you said about blocking, I don't completely agree. Of course the defense against kicks will work wonderfully in MMA, especially the evasive footwork. On the other hand, you cannot really block punches the same way, and you don't get the funky combos and setups in MMA that you get in modern TKD, so some skills may be unnecessary, while others are lacking, from an MMA point of view. The boxing guard is excellent for defending punches when you can't adjust the distance, and many TKD fighters lack in this area.

The inability to effectively block and deliver punches from the TKD stance is pretty much what I was refering to when I said it would "not work well in MMA." Another reason I believe it to be ineffective is that, all though your "menu" of kicks increases dramatically from this stance, it still pretty much leaves you 1 dimensional. Takedown defense is possible, but offensively you are limited.

I completely disagree. You can't use back kicks, hook kicks or axe kicks from such a stance.

The only reason GSP and Crow landed those kicks was that they set them up with footwork, which landed them in a different stance by the time they launched the kick.

I totally agree that hook kicks and axe kicks can not be thrown easily from a MT stance, but I don't personally consider them effective in an MMA environment. To big a risk for minimum reward. Once again, I wasn't very clear when I said "these kicks." Really I was referring to roundhouse and spinning back kicks only.

As far as the back kicks by GSP and the Crow are concerned though, they were definately set up by footwork, but it was footwork that is taught in MT (at least in my classes ). We usually use it as a counter to a front side/leg attack, but you may also find yourself in position after throwing certain combos (anything ending in a left hook or missed front leg-to-front leg kick for example).

Basically, IMO you can throw the two most "effective" kicks from TKD from a MT based MMA stance without giving up the other offensive oppurtunities that a TKD stance might deny.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

The inability to effectively block and deliver punches from the TKD stance is pretty much what I was refering to when I said it would "not work well in MMA." Another reason I believe it to be ineffective is that, all though your "menu" of kicks increases dramatically from this stance, it still pretty much leaves you 1 dimensional. Takedown defense is possible, but offensively you are limited.

I agree in a way. What TKD does really well is staying out of range and punishing openings by very quick counters. It is also good at creating openings through combos from outside. So there are plenty of offensive options.

But you're right, that alone is not always enough in an MMA match.

There is plenty of punching and blocking in TKD too, but it's fair to say that it takes a back seat and isn't really emphasised at most places.

I totally agree that hook kicks and axe kicks can not be thrown easily from a MT stance, but I don't personally consider them effective in an MMA environment. To big a risk for minimum reward. Once again, I wasn't very clear when I said "these kicks." Really I was referring to roundhouse and spinning back kicks only.

Well, the reason they are "not effective in an MMA environment" is that people try to throw them from the wrong stance

The result is an awkward kick.

Very few people actually attempted to land these kicks after properly setting them up, that was my point.

 

[Soulbane]

Buddy of mine is a 3rd Dan TKD Black Belt, and oftentimes gets ridiculed by MMA enthusiasts for partaking in what they call "Sport." Martial Arts. Flaming him for a martial art that has no use in MMA.

Little did they realize he is also an excellent accomplished boxer, and has proven everyone wrong about TKD since.

His leg work and kicks are incredible, and with a boxing background, the synthesized hyrbid is very effective.

Don't let people discourage you from taking TKD. Train hard. Just trying to give some encouragement. =D

 

[P-Town BeatDown]

Well, the reason they are "not effective in an MMA environment" is that people try to throw them from the wrong stance

The result is an awkward kick.

Very few people actually attempted to land these kicks after properly setting them up, that was my point.

LOL, I think you nailed my bias! One of my most painful experiences was when I first started training MMA at a school (TQFC) about a year ago. I threw an axe kick totally off balance and the guy I was sparring with caught it on his shoulder and slammed me in that position. I vowed never to throw one again!

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Good questions, see the Muay Thai + boxing threads for some thoughts on stance+footwork+kicking.

The reason many fighters use the sideway stance is that it allows you to turn both ways. You can do a back leg roundhouse and a back leg back kick equally fast, and for a kicking game, this is very good. The kidney (back) side is protected either by evasive footwork, or by blocking it with the extended front arm. The back elbow comes to your front shoulder to protect the face. You have to remember that TKD fighters like fighting at long distance, so if you're in a kicking range, you are not in punching range, so you have fewer options to cover.

This sideways stance is very good for footwork (many boxers also use a very sideways stance because it enables them to use angles), but it is dangerous for sparring with low kicks. That's where a more frontal stance comes in.

Frontal stance is good for punching (both jab and cross have good power), and you can still deliver good kicks with the back leg, but you can't do spinning kicks (back kick, spinning hook kick), and your lateral movement is somewhat impaired. Also, you expose a large surface of your body, including both your liver and kidneys, so you have to have a very good guard and good blocks if you want to use this.

The truth is, that most martial arts (including Muay Thai, boxing, TKD, karate, etc.) have different stances, and that a lot of it is preference of the fighter. Muay Thai fighters TEND to stand more frontally, TKD fighters tend to stand more sideways, boxers come in all shapes and colours, from full frontal to full sideways. In a good school, you will learn about this, and be allowed to develop your own stance which best fits YOUR game, your strengths and your expectations.

Having said that, you'll have to understand the differences. If you stand sideways, you will have to have a good sense of distance and good footwork. You'll have to evade low kicks by footwork, and either stay out of range or jam the opponent immediately after he tries to unload with punches. But you'll have a very deceptive kicking game, and be able to come with all sorts of kicks at any time, and your cross will be a KO blow due to all the extra kick motion. A frontal stance is more solid and powerful, but more stationary, at least in my humble experience. It's better for punching, but you have to have good blocks.

So, if you want to add TKD kicking skills, a lot will depend on your stance, and how you fight. Switching to a completely sideways stance just before you kick is so obvious that you'll never get away with it. So if you want a more frontal stance in your MMA/MT matches, you'll have to invest a lot of work in your footwork and deceptive stance changes. Then the kicks become parts of larger combinations, where previous moves disguise subtle stance changes.

A very good example is the Loiseau-McCarthy match. Loiseau has a rather frontal stance, fakes a left hook with the front hand, and moves his left leg to the right. When McCarthy counters with the overhand right, he doesn't notice that Loiseau's front leg has moved during the hook, and Loiseau is standing almost sideways. From there, he can launch the back kick that finished the match.

So, it's possible to do kicks like that, even from "the MMA stance", but you'll have to be sneaky with your footwork, and think in combinations instead of single kicks.

Hope that helps.

another excellent post ,EEG. But how is the sideways TKD stance weak agianst low kicks? becasue of the leading lead leg? Also what about adopting a 45 degree stance instead of a completely frontla or side stance and perhaps using the 45 degree stance to transition between the fornt and side stances?

 

[InternetMonster]

another excellent post ,EEG. But how is the sideways TKD stance weak agianst low kicks? becasue of the leading lead leg? Also what about adopting a 45 degree stance instead of a completely frontla or side stance and perhaps using the 45 degree stance to transition between the fornt and side stances?

1. you cant check it with the proper angle of shin
2. the back of your thigh is exposed(you dont wanna be kicked there)

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

1. you cant check it with the proper angle of shin
2. the back of your thigh is exposed(you dont wanna be kicked there)

1. Really? Yo cant jst lift your knee into your opponents shin?
2. You mean yor hamstrings? If so I could agree with that.

The best thing IMO is to use a hybrid stance neither frontal or sideways, a 45 degree stance and to transition as EEG siad between them with combos.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

1. Really? Yo cant jst lift your knee into your opponents shin?

Not if the kick is coming from behind the leg, right on your hamstrings. Taking a kick on the front of the knee or a quad is not that bad, both can be conditioned and flexed on impact. Getting nailed on the hamstring/back of knee can be debilitating, though.

My boxing instructor has also trained Muay Thai for about 10 years, and teaches the boxing stance with the front foot pointing straight ahead for this very reason.

That's a very good example of adjusting his boxing stance slightly in light of things he learned while training MT.

The best thing IMO is to use a hybrid stance neither frontal or sideways, a 45 degree stance and to transition as EEG siad between them with combos.

Yeah, when I talked about "sideways" stance and "frontal" stance, those are extremes. EVERYBODY is somewhere inbetween. Where exactly you are depends on you. You need to understand that these are different positions, and there are many ways you can stand and WILL stand in a fight, and it will almost NEVER be completely sideways or completely frontal, unless you've screwed up somewhere in the process

When using footwork, moving side to side, finding angles, evading strikes, your position will change, as will the angle of your hips and feet, and this will determine what some good counters from that position are.

Personally, I stand quite sideways, but my front leg always points forward. Then again, I'm neither a Muay Thai fighter nor an MMA fighter, so take it for what it's worth. It does serve me very well in boxing, TKD and kickboxing, though.

It also has to do with the way I fight. I prefer distance (not surprising considering a TKD background), I prefer using jabs for distance/setups/tactical reasons and concentrate on a strong cross, and in TKD I like to drag the guy into combos by being out of range, and the axe kick is one of my favourite counters. My stance accomodates for all that. If I had a different game, I'd need a different stance, basically.

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

Another thing you can consider is having different stances, for different distances.

In boxing, for example, the inside fighting stance (square on, feet wide and in line) is very different from the standard boxing stance (one leg in front, shoulders and hips angled).

You can add a third, more sideways stance for long distance where you concentrate on kicking. Then if you come closer, go more frontal, as a standard boxing stance to deal with punches. It will affect your kicking game to an extent, but you'll get better defense from punches. Instead of having a close game and a distance game, you'll have a close game, semi-distance game and a large distance game, with stances to match. At the distance you can then eat your TKD heart out :icon_chee, since it's unlikely that anyone can catch you at a distance and play TKD kicking game with you.

If the distance changes, you can go to a more orthodox kickboxing stance/tactics.

 

[thecas]

Frontal stance is good for punching (both jab and cross have good power), and you can still deliver good kicks with the back leg, but you can't do spinning kicks (back kick, spinning hook kick), and your lateral movement is somewhat impaired. Also, you expose a large surface of your body, including both your liver and kidneys, so you have to have a very good guard and good blocks if you want to use this.
lps.

It quite answers my doubt. But some minor points here.

How does a more frontal stance expose more of your kidneys?

Sideway stance does seem to make your footwork more versatile. However, when you throw a roundhouse from a totally sideways stance, don't you find you have already lost most momentum by the time your body has rotated back and u r about to kick him?

 

[Evil Eye Gouger]

It quite answers my doubt. But some minor points here.

How does a more frontal stance expose more of your kidneys?

Actually, it doesn't. The sideways stance does, sorry.

What I meant to say is that you expose your liver on the one side and the spleen on the other, so you can be attacked from both sides. In a sideways stance, your liver or spleen is facing the opponent, and is covered by your guard. You are exposing your chest/abs and back.

Sideway stance does seem to make your footwork more versatile. However, when you throw a roundhouse from a totally sideways stance, don't you find you have already lost most momentum by the time your body has rotated back and u r about to kick him?

Remember that we're talking about the TKD roundhouse here, which is less about the momentum and more about twisting the hips on impact. The more sideways you stand, the bigger the amount of rotation of your hips, and hence more power.

 

[Tim Chan]

the best way to take away leg kick power from a side stance is circling to the direction of the kick. checking it is nearly impossible because of the angle. steping away from the direction of the kick basically means letting it skim you or getting hit after most of the power is expended.