Thurman-Porter and Garcia-Guerrero in the works?

[tehmvp]

I don't think any of those guys losing to any of those other guys is a career breaker at all. The public has always forgiven losses against good competition. Think about it for a minute.

Khan got crushed by Danny Garcia and still considers himself the top got behind Manny/Floyd in the world and lots of casual fans agree.

Broner got bounced by Maidana and never lost a step as far as getting any fights he wants and headlining them every time and he has a legit belt title fight soon even though he lost again in his last fight.

Porter lost recently and still got the big Broner fight and now is looking like he'll get Thurman next.

Losing to real competition isn't as big of a deal as it used to be.

Don't forget Berto having the ultimate bounce back of landing Floyd.

 

[JayElectra]

Who are the 4? Thurman, Brook, Garcia, and Porter?

The problem I have, is I do not want to call anybody the "future" because they are undefeated against less-than-stellar competition. I don't really give a damn about their undefeated records if one guy is fighting Salka, Paulie, and Guerrero in 3 out of his last 4, and the other guy's last 3 were Collazo, Guerrero, and Bundu. You know what I mean?

These guys are ready to fight each other. I'd even say they need to fight very soon, before their fight is spoiled by a bad loss. Garcia almost lost to Herrera and Thurman was hurt by Collazo. All it takes is one bad night and a potentially great fight between Garcia and Thurman is spoiled or lost altogether. We've seen that over and over in boxing, you have to strike while the iron is hot.

You can say this is the case for Thurman, but it's definitely not the case for Garcia.

 

[nac386]

You can say this is the case for Thurman, but it's definitely not the case for Garcia.

Thurman beat Diego Chaves, an underrated fighter. I think that's his best win. There is not much else on his resume that impresses me.

Danny Garcia knocked out Khan, and beat Matthysse. Those are both better than the Chaves win for Thurman. Garcia then beat Peterson, who I believe is an easier fight than Chaves. Outside of that, there is not a lot of quality on his resume. Some cherry picked old guys (Morales, Judah, Paulie), a Nate Cambell coming off 3 straight losses, and some guys who are B-level like Holt and Herrera.

I'm not saying Danny's resume is weak, because it's definitely decent. But he gets a little bit more credit than is warranted sometimes for how grueling his rise to the top was. He did not do anything so amazing during that time that it excuses what he's done since beating Lucas, which is not a whole lot at all.

Sadly, I feel like Garcia's career is going to end up being remembered for things that have already happened. It looks like Haymon wants to squeeze every dime he can out of Garcia and Thurman, but one of them is going to lose and ruin his plan and our hopes of seeing the fights we really want.

 

[JayElectra]

Thurman beat Diego Chaves, an underrated fighter. I think that's his best win. There is not much else on his resume that impresses me.

Danny Garcia knocked out Khan, and beat Matthysse. Those are both better than the Chaves win for Thurman. Garcia then beat Peterson, who I believe is an easier fight than Chaves. Outside of that, there is not a lot of quality on his resume. Some cherry picked old guys (Morales, Judah, Paulie), a Nate Cambell coming off 3 straight losses, and some guys who are B-level like Holt and Herrera.

I'm not saying Danny's resume is weak, because it's definitely decent. But he gets a little bit more credit than is warranted sometimes for how grueling his rise to the top was. He did not do anything so amazing during that time that it excuses what he's done since beating Lucas, which is not a whole lot at all.

I'm not calling him the future anymore, I'm closer to calling him a has-been until he fights Thurman, Porter, Brook, Chaves...hell, anybody in the top 10.

Sadly, I feel like Garcia's career is going to end up being remembered for things that have already happened. It looks like Haymon wants to squeeze every dime he can out of Garcia and Thurman, but one of them is going to lose and ruin his plan and our hopes of seeing the fights we really want.

Yeah, I think Chaves is a good fighter who is generally underappreciated, though I'm not sure there is a lot to say that he's a better win than Peterson, but that's a discussion for another day (I think he got a bit of a raw deal against Rios in a fight he was clearly winning and I think he fought Bradley to a genuinely close decision). I find it very difficult to Garcia's resume anything but impressive even if the quality of his opposition has dropped from when he fought absolute elite JWWs (whom he was a clear underdog against) in a row. Having wins over Khan and Matthysse alone makes a statement like "I do not want to call anybody the "future" because they are undefeated against less-than-stellar competition" with regards to Garcia, a little ridiculous.

Now, I think it's reasonable to want Garcia to fight some of the other top talent at WW now that he has moved up (and I hope he does), but that shouldn't mean that we denigrate what he has already done if he doesn't immediately fight the elite of the elite (again, in a new division). Saying he should fight a top 10 fighter at WW is fine, but we shouldn't forget that he just did fight a top 5 JWW right around the JWW limit in April. Garcia has a history of fighting and beating elite fighters and I think it's at least a little ridiculous the reputation he has among some boxing fans on the internet as some manufactured and protected fighter. As an aside, even if we look past his major wins, I think it's clear that Garcia was never a coddled and manufactured fighter. Herrera is just about the absolute choice one could think of for an easy, showcase style fight after becoming champion. Campbell, Holt, Theophane, and even an old Morales are not easy fights for a very green fighter coming up. Garcia was never someone picked to be a star out of the amateurs and brought along easily, he earned his position (and I admit that I doubted him several steps along the way up until around when he beat Judah (and didn't look all that good doing it)). I actually don't think he is bound for great success at WW, either, though, again that doesn't invalidate what he has already done.

 

[Seano]

Diego Chaves is about on the level of Robert Guerrero. Maybe not even.

He hasn't beat anyone. The "draw"with Bradley was ridiculous. Other than that, the best thing he's done was get questionably DQ'd vs Rios.

 

[nac386]

Yeah, I think Chaves is a good fighter who is generally underappreciated, though I'm not sure there is a lot to say that he's a better win than Peterson, but that's a discussion for another day (I think he got a bit of a raw deal against Rios in a fight he was clearly winning and I think he fought Bradley to a genuinely close decision). I find it very difficult to Garcia's resume anything but impressive even if the quality of his opposition has dropped from when he fought absolute elite JWWs (whom he was a clear underdog against) in a row. Having wins over Khan and Matthysse alone makes a statement like "I do not want to call anybody the "future" because they are undefeated against less-than-stellar competition" with regards to Garcia, a little ridiculous.

Now, I think it's reasonable to want Garcia to fight some of the other top talent at WW now that he has moved up (and I hope he does), but that shouldn't mean that we denigrate what he has already done if he doesn't immediately fight the elite of the elite (again, in a new division). Saying he should fight a top 10 fighter at WW is fine, but we shouldn't forget that he just did fight a top 5 JWW right around the JWW limit in April. Garcia has a history of fighting and beating elite fighters and I think it's at least a little ridiculous the reputation he has among some boxing fans on the internet as some manufactured and protected fighter. As an aside, even if we look past his major wins, I think it's clear that Garcia was never a coddled and manufactured fighter. Herrera is just about the absolute choice one could think of for an easy, showcase style fight after becoming champion. Campbell, Holt, Theophane, and even an old Morales are not easy fights for a very green fighter coming up. Garcia was never someone picked to be a star out of the amateurs and brought along easily, he earned his position (and I admit that I doubted him several steps along the way up until around when he beat Judah (and didn't look all that good doing it)). I actually don't think he is bound for great success at WW, either, though, again that doesn't invalidate what he has already done.

Peterson was a better win for Bradley and Matthysse than he was for Garcia. Garcia was the 3rd guy to beat Peterson, and I don't think Peterson is as good as he once was. I think Peterson is so average right now that I did not even want to see him fight Garcia. I was always confused about why people wanted that fight over a Lucas rematch.

Garcia was never coddled when he was coming up, but now you could make the argument that he is. Since winning against Matthysse, he has been handled as more of a commodity than a fighter.

I do not buy the "new to the division" excuse. He was lineal champ at 140, then he fought Peterson at 144. He clearly outgrew light-welterweight.

Did Ricky Hatton need 2 or 3 "getting used to the division" fights before taking on Collazo for the belt? Or did he need some WW warm-ups before moving back up to fight Mayweather? No, and he never even outgrew LWW, so Danny is bigger than Hatton.

Danny did not need a Paulie fight to get "acclimated" to the division. Paulie is not even a real welterweight, he's an old, shot, light-welterweight that punches like a featherweight. What kind of acclimation is that? In what way does that prepare him for real welterweights who have the body and power of welterweights? It was a silly justification for a money grab.

 

[nac386]

Diego Chaves is about on the level of Robert Guerrero. Maybe not even.

He hasn't beat anyone. The "draw"with Bradley was ridiculous. Other than that, the best thing he's done was get questionably DQ'd vs Rios.

I had Diego Chaves winning that fight with Bradley. So did Jay, if I remember correctly. I'm a huge Bradley fan, too. He did not do what he needed to do against Chaves.

Chaves was clearly beating Rios. He fought very well against Thurman too. Thurman looked better in the Chaves fight than he ever has since. Thurman almost looks like he has regressed a bit lately.

Guerrero sucks now Seano. Chaves can actually box from the inside and outside.

 

[JayElectra]

Peterson was a better win for Bradley and Matthysse than he was for Garcia. Garcia was the 3rd guy to beat Peterson, and I don't think Peterson is as good as he once was. I think Peterson is so average right now that I did not even want to see him fight Garcia. I was always confused about why people wanted that fight over a Lucas rematch.

Garcia was never coddled when he was coming up, but now you could make the argument that he is. Since winning against Matthysse, he has been handled as more of a commodity than a fighter.

I do not buy the "new to the division" excuse. He was lineal champ at 140, then he fought Peterson at 144. He clearly outgrew light-welterweight.

Did Ricky Hatton need 2 or 3 "getting used to the division" fights before taking on Collazo for the belt? Or did he need some WW warm-ups before moving back up to fight Mayweather? No, and he never even outgrew LWW, so Danny is bigger than Hatton.

Danny did not need a Paulie fight to get "acclimated" to the division. Paulie is not even a real welterweight, he's an old, shot, light-welterweight that punches like a featherweight. What kind of acclimation is that? In what way does that prepare him for real welterweights who have the body and power of welterweights? It was a silly justification for a money grab.

For Matthysse, maybe. Not for Bradley, I don't think (to my eyes, he clearly improved after the Bradley fight).

There have been obvious safe choices meant only to earn more while taking little to no risk and just adding another win to the record after the Matthysse fight (Salka, obviously, and Paulie as a first fight at WW is definitely something of a safe choice, though, I'd argue that Paulie's style isn't necessarily one that Garcia has ever thrived against). There have also been choices that are the complete opposite of that (Herrera, notably, and Peterson to a lesser extent). It's a mixed bag is basically what I'm saying.

Guerrero at this point is something of a showcase fight, perhaps the best chosen one of Garcia's career in the sense that Garcia can look spectacular and potentially stop someone who hasn't been stopped yet in his career and has recently been in with a supposed top WW in Thurman (and Guerrero did actually have success against Thurman at points in their fight). I don't necessarily buy that Guerrero is shot anymore than I thought that Matthysse was shot after getting floored and hurt against Molina. Guerrero has obviously declined somewhat, but I don't think he is a fighter with nothing left (though, I might be wrong).

I really don't think there is much out there to make one believe that we won't be seeing these top WWs in with each other in the not too distant future. Looking at it from the outside, I think it is entirely reasonable to guess that Haymon's plan is to establish some of these fighters with the viewers before putting them against each other. That's not necessarily what I'd like to see as a fight fan, but it makes sense from a business point of view and, going back to the Garcia being treated as a commodity and not a fighter point (fighters are commodities), this is after all prize fighting.

 

[JayElectra]

I had Diego Chaves winning that fight with Bradley. So did Jay, if I remember correctly. I'm a huge Bradley fan, too. He did not do what he needed to do against Chaves.

Chaves was clearly beating Rios. He fought very well against Thurman too. Thurman looked better in the Chaves fight than he ever has since. Thurman almost looks like he has regressed a bit lately.

Guerrero sucks now Seano. Chaves can actually box from the inside and outside.

Draw or a narrow Chaves win. I'd have to look at the thread and find my score.

 

[DeJulez]

Ruben would fuck Angel up.
And i think Porter beats Thurman.

 

[PUO3]

Gtfo. Long dick style.

 

[Confucamus]

I had Diego Chaves winning that fight with Bradley. So did Jay, if I remember correctly. I'm a huge Bradley fan, too. He did not do what he needed to do against Chaves.

Chaves was clearly beating Rios. He fought very well against Thurman too. Thurman looked better in the Chaves fight than he ever has since. Thurman almost looks like he has regressed a bit lately.

Guerrero sucks now Seano. Chaves can actually box from the inside and outside.

You really had Chaves beating Bradley? I only watched it once but I had Bradley 8-4. Maybe it deserves another look. I thought it was pretty much agreed on the Draw was a horrible card.

Thurman Chaves was a good fight that said a lot about both guys. I was actually more impressed with Chaves than Thurman there. He was making Thurman look human with some solid boxing before getting hit with a body shot from hell.

 

[Seano]

Draw or a narrow Chaves win. I'd have to look at the thread and find my score.

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f5...ead-no-showtime-spoilers-2886927/index19.html

You actually said close for Bradley or draw in the RBR thread. You said 116-112 Chaves was ridiculous.
Most people in that thread thought it was a poor decision.

 

[nac386]

And i think Porter beats Thurman.

He really might. I'm 50-50 on that right now.

You really had Chaves beating Bradley? I only watched it once but I had Bradley 8-4. Maybe it deserves another look. I thought it was pretty much agreed on the Draw was a horrible card.

Thurman Chaves was a good fight that said a lot about both guys. I was actually more impressed with Chaves than Thurman there. He was making Thurman look human with some solid boxing before getting hit with a body shot from hell.

Chaves is good man. He is a more complete boxer (not great at anything, but solid all around) than a lot of more heralded guys.

I'm pretty sure I had it a draw or Chaves win. The more I think about it, I might have called it a draw, when I have time I'll check the RBR thread. Bradley looked out of shape (understandable, he was coming off a bad injury) and did not fight the style he should have. Plus he got a bad headbutt and swelled up, which isn't fun.

I actually think Bradley should have won relatively easily. But he allowed Chaves to dictate the style of the fight. If he approached Chaves the way he approached Marquez then he would have won.

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f5...ead-no-showtime-spoilers-2886927/index19.html

You actually said close for Bradley or draw in the RBR thread. You said 116-112 Chaves was ridiculous.
Most people in that thread thought it was a poor decision.

Yeah, I kinda saw that fight the way you saw Pac vs Bradley. I felt like a lot of people may have only been watching Bradley while Chaves was doing a lot of good work and stealing rounds.

 

[Tobago Jones]

Thurman-Porter? Yes.
Garcia-Guerrero? Fuck no.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f5...ead-no-showtime-spoilers-2886927/index19.html

You actually said close for Bradley or draw in the RBR thread. You said 116-112 Chaves was ridiculous.
Most people in that thread thought it was a poor decision.

He really might. I'm 50-50 on that right now.



Chaves is good man. He is a more complete boxer (not great at anything, but solid all around) than a lot of more heralded guys.

I'm pretty sure I had it a draw or Chaves win. The more I think about it, I might have called it a draw, when I have time I'll check the RBR thread. Bradley looked out of shape (understandable, he was coming off a bad injury) and did not fight the style he should have. Plus he got a bad headbutt and swelled up, which isn't fun.

I actually think Bradley should have won relatively easily. But he allowed Chaves to dictate the style of the fight. If he approached Chaves the way he approached Marquez then he would have won.



Yeah, I kinda saw that fight the way you saw Pac vs Bradley. I felt like a lot of people may have only been watching Bradley while Chaves was doing a lot of good work and stealing rounds.

Mark your calendars boys and girls..

I'm actually going to side with Seano over nac on this one.

I thought Bradley defeat Chaves pretty handidly...as a matter of fact I was so convinced he won that I turned off the TV before the score cards were announced. It wasn't until I logged into Sherdog did I find out.

Maybe I need to watch it again, but I had it 8-4 Bradley.

 

[nac386]

Mark your calendars boys and girls..

I'm actually going to side with Seano over nac on this one.

I thought Bradley defeat Chaves pretty handidly...as a matter of fact I was so convinced he won that I turned off the TV before the score cards were announced. It wasn't until I logged into Sherdog did I find out.

Maybe I need to watch it again, but I had it 8-4 Bradley.

Et tu, LI?

I might have had it a draw. Bradley underperformed though, and appeared uninterested to me. I could watch it again and double check, I only watched it live.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Et tu, LI?

I might have had it a draw. Bradley underperformed though, and appeared uninterested to me. I could watch it again and double check, I only watched it live.

That was another reason why I stopped it prematurely...

Bradley's heart didn't seem to be in it...it seemed like he was just going through the motions and attempting to cruise to a UD.

 

[ssx]

Thurman-Porter will be great. Thurman is a getting a bit overrated for not really having proven himself yet. He hasn't impressed me as much as some and while I favor him, a Porter upset would not surprise me.
Garcia-Guerrero...GTFO. Again Ghost is tough and will make a fight out of it, but Danny out classes him to a 117-111 UD or maybe a late stoppage.

 

[burningspear]

Hopefully this leads to a Thurman/Garcia clash.