Throwing technique?

Not so what you mean about violence, from Instructor. I dont think getting thrown hard in randori is the same as getting punched or kicked outside of it. Anyway I throw my teacher harx as well. He says marote should be a hard throw and tell me to throw harder and use my hips more along with a powerfull hikate

We dont throw softly because we care about each other, we throw softly because its more efficiently and easier to do than over your head.
 
Its funny people on sherdog say if you dont sparr or fully commit to a throw you are training bullshit. But if you do sparr as and do the attack with intent and do it hard it is also bullshit
 
Lols you guys make fun of me, but don't have any sources for your knowledge. You ask for where I train like that is important, but won't tell me where you do so.

There is no need to place source when Kano Jigoro's judo says that's how a seoinage, be it ippon or morote, works. And since most people who do judo does Kano Jigoro's judo, I really don't see a need to say anything more than "a judo school" when you ask for a source.

On the other hand YOU need to provide proof, as you're saying something that goes directly against the way Kano Jigoro's judo says to do a seoinage. If you're not doing his judo then that's fine. Just don't go spouting off this bullshit about pre-war judo vs Olympic judo because it simply doesn't exist.

Unless you care to substantiate it with actual proof besides "my teacher says X".

As for your instructor, you provided a name but are we supposed to know it? What are we supposed to do with this information?

This is another thing that I find so incredibly stupid with name dropping your instructors. If I can't find anything about him/her, does that mean he/she is not good enough to teach? If I said that I train at Marcelo's place in NY, does that make me special? What if I name dropped Caio Terra? I know a couple of people who train at Marcelo's place in NY, and iirc one of them even actually managed to do something with Marcelo once. Should that make me green with envy or something?

I first learned judo from an old Japanese guy who holds the rank of go-dan last I checked. He worked for Comcast and did a bunch of electrical stuff with them iirc. Do you honestly think you'd know him if I gave you his name? Would anyone here know him? Heck would anyone know him if I went to some dedicated judo forum and wrote "Hey, I learned judo from NAME!"

I very much doubt it.

Name dropping is stupid. In my opinion, it says nothing about your actual ability or the tutelage you receive and merely suggests to me that you feel some false sense of pride or prestige from being associated with the name.

And I never asked you where you train, cause I don't care. Don't go confusing me with someone else or generalizing what people say to you.
 
Its funny people on sherdog say if you dont sparr or fully commit to a throw you are training bullshit. But if you do sparr as and do the attack with intent and do it hard it is also bullshit

If you don't know the difference between randori and a genuine attempt to bring someone down, then you don't know judo.

And if you've never heard of someone getting injured from randori or haven't felt the bone-aching pain that comes after a simple randori session with a genuine black belt who decides to actually throw you multiple times, then what you consider being thrown hard isn't actually being thrown hard.
 
There is no need to place source when Kano Jigoro's judo says that's how a seoinage, be it ippon or morote, works. And since most people who do judo does Kano Jigoro's judo, I really don't see a need to say anything more than "a judo school" when you ask for a source.

On the other hand YOU need to provide proof, as you're saying something that goes directly against the way Kano Jigoro's judo says to do a seoinage. If you're not doing his judo then that's fine. Just don't go spouting off this bullshit about pre-war judo vs Olympic judo because it simply doesn't exist.

Unless you care to substantiate it with actual proof besides "my teacher says X".

I got some of this information from Jimmy Pedro's book here http://www.amazon.com/Judo-Techniques-Tactics-Martial-Arts/dp/0736003436.

I posted that earlier, as well as this http://fightland.vice.com/blog/jack-slack-fighting-motives-part-1

You also seem unfamiliar with this throw http://judoinfo.com/blog/kata-guruma.
Kata Garuma has a very hard break fall. If you know how to do it without throwing uke over your head id very interested in the technique.

But really you are doing a sloppy job here, not posting another source and just saying "this is how I did it so it must be true". Seriously you could have posted a link to judoinfo yourself, or some youtube clips. But you posted nothing. How am I suppose to take your seriously? If you want to be MR know it all on the internet put some effort in, link to some judo sites and articles that back up what you are saying.

The Burden proof is just as much on YOU as it is on me. I can tell you havn't read much on the subject or your would have posted something. Saying " Everyone Knows what i'm saying is true" is a total cope out. It is also really bad argument to dismiss name dropping and than invoke the name of Jiguro Kano. How about you cite some of Kano's books or quote him?
Well I have proof. What do you got?
 
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Kata Garuma has a very hard break fall. If you know how to do it without throwing uke over your head id very interested in the technique.

Actually kata guruma rarely is a hard fall because most often it is pulled off from the knees. It's extremely rare to see a standing kata guruma. Even if so, it's still not a hard fall because it's difficult to throw uke downwards, as you would for say osoto or tai otoshi.

If you want to talk about hard throws I bet I've got you beat. I was once thrown so hard by a heavyweight that I literally bounced off the mat. I've been thrown so hard that I pulled my neck muscles just bracing from the impact, leaving me painfully motionless the next day. I got thrown onto the wooden floors on the side which made my hip hurt, then caught the swine flu and had incredible pain every time I coughed.

These are not things I wish to repeat.

Anyway, if you don't want to listen to those who've had years of experience, you'll just have to learn over many years the hard way. Like I did!

I know you want to defend your dojo and your sensei. I did too for my first dojo. Later on I had a falling out and now that I'm experience I know how they trained wasn't the right way.
 
Actually kata guruma rarely is a hard fall because most often it is pulled off from the knees. It's extremely rare to see a standing kata guruma. Even if so, it's still not a hard fall because it's difficult to throw uke downwards, as you would for say osoto or tai otoshi.

That is good to know. In his book Jimmy Pedro says it is almost always s hard throw. He . demonstrates it standing. I guess it can be done several ways.

I just rememberd drop seonage is a bitch of a throw i have been exposed to in several gyms; including the one that discouraged throwing uke over your head for most throws. What do you think of that?
 
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Its funny people on sherdog say if you dont sparr or fully commit to a throw you are training bullshit. But if you do sparr as and do the attack with intent and do it hard it is also bullshit

No, if you do the seoi like that against someone who can defend you are going to get a hernia.

Judo has developed a lot since its beginnings and techniques that would work against your random rural japanese midget of the time wont work in a judoka that has been training for years.

Modern judo is about throwing other judokas, not random people on the street.

Basically its not only slower throwing above your head, uke just needs to lower his hips a little and you wont be able to finish the throw.
 
You also seem unfamiliar with this throw http://judoinfo.com/blog/kata-guruma.
Kata Garuma has a very hard break fall. If you know how to do it without throwing uke over your head id very interested in the technique.

Or you should actually read what I wrote and realize that I'm talking about the seoinage not having the uke thrown over the tori's head because that's what were were talking initially talking about.

But really you are doing a sloppy job here, not posting another source and just saying "this is how I did it so it must be true". Seriously you could have posted a link to judoinfo yourself, or some youtube clips. But you posted nothing. How am I suppose to take your seriously? If you want to be MR know it all on the internet put some effort in, link to some judo sites and articles that back up what you are saying.

I don't see the need to post things that you can easily find yourself. Just type in seoinage on youtube and you'll see a number of instructions on both the morote and ippon seoinage.

The Burden proof is just as much on YOU as it is on me.

It is not. The claims I made are readily verifiable on your own. That you didn't make the attempt to do so doesn't invalidate my claims.

It is also really bad argument to dismiss name dropping and than invoke the name of Jiguro Kano. How about you cite some of Kano's books or quote him?
Well I have proof. What do you got?

What?

How is this name dropping? He INVENTED the sport. It is his style of jujitsu. To write Kano Jiguro's judo is merely me specifying it for to make a point.

Let's make this real simple- are you practicing the judo developed by him or not? If so, then there is a standard seoinage as developed by him. Whether you can actually meet said standard depends mainly on your height and the height of the people you normally throw, but there is still a clear standard on how you do an ippon and morote seoinage. It does not involve the uke going over tori's head. It is simply impractical to have uke go over your head. It does not make it a more damaging throw either. That depends more on the commitment by the tori to the throw itself and his/her skill at it.

If you are not practicing his judo, then you're free to do whatever the hell you want I guess.
 
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No, if you do the seoi like that against someone who can defend you are going to get a hernia.

Judo has developed a lot since its beginnings and techniques that would work against your random rural japanese midget of the time wont work in a judoka that has been training for years.

Modern judo is about throwing other judokas, not random people on the street.

Basically its not only slower throwing above your head, uke just needs to lower his hips a little and you wont be able to finish the throw.

Wow you just put your foot in your mouth with this post. In a previous post you write prewar judo is a myth and any one teaching it is fake
Then when you readI do randori your line becomes that judo in the old days was crude and was designed to beat up peasants. Well that is what I was told the aim of this throw is: to defeat an unskilled opponent on the battlefield. I was taught to throw like that because it was that prewar style.. By admiting that judo has changed overtime you help make my point. Thanks
 
A little late to the party. In a right seoinage uke is thrown around the fulcrum of the right shoulder blade.
Both ipp. seo. and mor. seo. can be equally hard fall and it depends on the tori and the situation. Its possible some students may find it easier to throw harder with mor. seo. just because they have control and power of both hands. It doesn't really mean much though, I think the hardest throw I ever took so far was a left ipp. seo. which broke my ankle.
A true overhead throw from the jujutsu days would be something extinct like ganseki otoshi which has some similarities with seoinage.

Never say never, but given the probability of a teacher being wrong or a student misinterpreting, I would take a bet on the latter.
 
Or you should actually read what I wrote and realize that I'm talking about the seoinage not having the uke thrown over the tori's head because that's what were were talking initially talking about.



I don't see the need to post things that you can easily find yourself. Just type in seoinage on youtube and you'll see a number of instructions on both the morote and ippon seoinage.



It is not. The claims I made are readily verifiable on your own. That you didn't make the attempt to do so doesn't invalidate my claims.



What?

How is this name dropping? He INVENTED the sport. It is his style of jujitsu. To write Kano Jiguro's judo is merely me specifying it for to make a point.

Let's make this real simple- are you practicing the judo developed by him or not? If so, then there is a standard seoinage as developed by him. Whether you can actually meet said standard depends mainly on your height and the height of the people you normally throw, but there is still a clear standard on how you do an ippon and morote seoinage. It does not involve the uke going over tori's head. It is simply impractical to have uke go over your head. It does not make it a more damaging throw either. That depends more on the commitment by the tori to the throw itself and his/her skill at it.

If you are not practicing his judo, then you're free to do whatever the hell you want I guess.

In the OP I was very general in asking about throwing uke overhead. Later I did specify marote but my intent was always on the effectiveness of throwing uke overhead. You wanted a source for where I was getting this info about overhead throws and prewar judo so I posted that link about kata garuma because it was popukar in the old days. That is a throw that has fallen out of style.

I dunno why you keep mentioning Kano but dont actually post a video of him or a quote on how to throw.

I guess you dont know how to link youtube videos; or are too young to understand that you need to cite facts and sources if you want to convince people what you say is true. You seem like a kid.

Anyway did you look at the links I posted, cause you didn't mention either
 
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I have been taught two different ways to throw someone. In one you throw uki over your shoulder so he lands very hard. The other is the more common ( i think) method were uki slides off of your body and lands much softly. Do you guys have preferance? What are you thoughts on the best way to throw someone?

The best way is whatever your opponent is open to. It will be different for and on everyone. You will have to learn along the way. The end.
 
In the OP I was very general in asking about throwing uke overhead. Later I did specify marote but my intent was always on the effectiveness of throwing uke overhead.

Wait, what. I just reread your OP and now I'm confused. You actually don't say anything about throwing people over your head and instead talk about throwing people really hard and softly, and yet I refer to head multiple times in my post. Did I make a mistake and misread?

If so, why you talking about throwing people overhead in the post I just quoted now?

Obviously certain throws are designed to have uke go over your head. Tomoe-nage is an obvious example.

Are they effective? What do you mean by effective?

I could get thrown with a tomoe-nage all day and be fine. Throw me a couple times with an uchimata or harai-goshi and I'd probably be incapable of walking for a while.

You wanted a source for where I was getting this info about overhead throws and prewar judo so I posted that link about kata garuma because it was popukar in the old days. That is a throw that has fallen out of style.

No. I wanted info about how you think prewar judo is any different from Olympic judo or w.e.

I already wrote that the throws that are used may differ depending on the situation, but the standard for the form will remain the same. My entire disagreement with you here spawns on two things-

1) There exists a pre-war style of judo that somehow differs from Olympic judo.
2) That throwing uke overhead with a seoinage is "fine".

But it appears that #2 was an invalid disagreement.

I dunno why you keep mentioning Kano but dont actually post a video of him or a quote on how to throw.

Seriously?

I wrote that I mentioned his name merely because he invented judo and created certain standards for each throw, and you still don't get why I mentioned his name?

I guess you dont know how to link youtube videos; or are too young to understand that you need to cite facts and sources if you want to convince people what you say is true. You seem like a kid.

Anyway did you look at the links I posted, cause you didn't mention either

I expected you to be capable of looking things up on your own. I apologize for thinking that you were capable of certain things. I will not do that anymore.

There is little point looking at an amazon page of a book, cause I can't read it.

I don't know what the point of the article from the fightland website is in relation to the point you want to make here. Mind explaining?
 
Wait, what. I just reread your OP and now I'm confused. You actually don't say anything about throwing people over your head and instead talk about throwing people really hard and softly, and yet I refer to head multiple times in my post. Did I make a mistake and misread?

Yes, you did not read what I posted at all.

No. I wanted info about how you think prewar judo is any different from Olympic judo or w.e.


I don't know what the point of the article from the fightland website is in relation to the point you want to make here. Mind explaining?

You mean you didn't read it? wow you don't put much effort into this discussion do you. The fightland article begums with discussing the arm lock Jon Jones used to break Glover's arm in their MMA match, and how the same lock was common in pre war Judo and Jujitsu. It also talks about how the focus of jujitsy was on killing people or restraining them, which is different than modern day sport. It also mentions how swords and knives were part of the art.

I practice similar locks from a standing position, and was told they were used in the old days, but were not as common now. I was also told they were used to defeat people who were not very skilled. so i was surprised this lock worked in high level mma. I was told that locks like these fell out of style because they were hard to apply against a good opponent, and because when they were applied they did massive damage so it was hard to train them, similar to how leg locks and heel hooks are banned in judo comp now.

The judoinfo site i posted also talks about how throws go in and out of style. Katagarama as popular in the 20th century but is not in the 21st. The website isn't doesn't give an exact date on when it was popular but the point is judo has changed over time.


Judoinfo.com also has info on double leg and single leg takedowns, which are currently banned in Olympic Judo, but were part of the curriculum in the old days. the fact that you post that there is only one type of judo and that the art has stayed the same for over a hundred years is very telling. It tells me you don't really read about judo or know about Olympic comp. Or maybe you only train the Olympic rule set and are baffled as to how Ronda Rousey is so successful in MMA and where did she learn a single leg like that?
 
This argument about what is pre-war judo is tedious. A much more interesting discussion is to be had about the fact that TS trains under an organization that to my knowledge was euthanized in by the Americans 1946.
 
This argument about what is pre-war judo is tedious. A much more interesting discussion is to be had about the fact that TS trains under an organization that to my knowledge was euthanized in by the Americans 1946.

Yes the first org was destroyed but after the war it was allowed to come back. They changed their curriculum slightly to get approval to do that. The did that by focusing a lot on kata and Iado. Most gyms don't sparr much at all. If you come to my gym you will see alot of kata being practiced and swordwork.

Even my judo teacher insists i do kata. I do kata much more than randori.

The USA army really changed martial arts in Japan. Most schools either decided to take one of two paths:

Either eliminate all the sparring and randori, as well as ground work out of the currucilm to focus on kata and low intensity drills.

Or the take all the punches and kicks, and more diverse submissions out and only focus on Olympic judo.

So I understand that what I am saying sounds very odd.

here is some info about DNBK
http://www.dnbk.org/history.cfm
 
The current society is still affiliate d the Emperor. I
 
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The current society is still affiliate d the Emperor. I

Heh heh heh........ now this is where you should check your sources.

Anyway, just a figurehead anyway. Not like the Emp ever had anything to do with martial arts.
 
Yes, you did not read what I posted at all.

Apologies.

You mean you didn't read it? wow you don't put much effort into this discussion do
you.

I did. I just didn't know what it had to do with "pre-war judo".

Everything else you wrote

I'm just going to quote myself here.

magick said:
I already wrote that the throws that are used may differ depending on the situation, but the standard for the form will remain the same.

Since you are not allowed to break people in sport competitions, joint locks are generally frowned upon. It is a sport, not a fight to the death. But that merely means you'll avoid using techniques that can seriously hurt people. The only reason we can throw people is because we have padded mats. Without them...

Plus, as you wrote, they are hard to use against experienced people, so why bother attempting them?

Olympic judo wants to differentiate itself from Olympic wrestling, and so judo techniques that mimic wrestling techniques aren't allowed, but you'll still learn them from teachers who teach everything for the sake of completion. Sort of matches what I wrote in the above quote huh?

As for techniques falling out of style and such... Again fits what I wrote in the above quote doesn't it?

But at this point it appears that I mistook what you wrote. You weren't actually saying that seoinage should be done with the uke thrown over your head to make it land harder. So all this crap about standards is silly on my part.

So, I apologize for reading what you wrote wrong.
 
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