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This 80 year old man has better boxing technique than mma fighters

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Dana's Moonface, Jul 25, 2020.

  1. AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

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    I don't think this is strictly true.

    Traditional footwork, advanced footwork, all manner of punches, bobbing, weaving and even shoulder rolls have all been proven as effective in MMA, and the shoulder roll was something most people didn't think would work for one reason or another (myself included)
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    BUT most MMA fighters don't have basic punching mechanics down. They just swing for power.

    Petr Yan is a great example of how good and refined boxing can look in MMA (he's a ranked master of sport in Russia in boxing specifically)

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    Perfect hip and shoulder torque

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    1, shift into southpaw on the 2, followed by a southpaw 2
    [​IMG]

    I don't think there's really anything in boxing that doesn't work in MMA, it's just the context of how you use it that is different.

    Like @DoctorTaco mentioned, MMA fights are mostly punching. I can count the amount of truly great kickers in MMA on just two hands, and if you're talking great thai clinch fighters, Matt Brown is the only good one

    I agree with you in that no one will be both Tyson and Gordon Ryan (although Garry Tonon seems to be making an honest attempt) - it's more that there is nothing stopping fighters from developing solid boxing fundamentals... they just don't. Most trainers too just aren't up to snuff, there are trainers who I know personally who will discount things as 'not going to work in MMA' even without actual knowledge of how to apply those things.
     
  2. noc Green Belt

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    If that feels small.. the MMA glove feels like you have nothing then. Maybe wrestling and the rest is secondary in the fight, but is not secondary during training
     
  3. mirko>anyone Black Belt

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    I’m not sure what we disagree on? Many improvements can be made, but some subtleties in boxing aren’t practical in MMA. There’s plenty of room for improvement still. Look at what the calve kick has done over the last couple months alone.
     
  4. RabbitPunch36 Blue Belt

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    Who do you have a elite kickers? I am guessing Aldo, Cro Cop, Anderson, Adesenya, Pettis, Wonderboy, Cung Le and Machida are probably on that list.
     
  5. Dexter Orange Belt

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    The funniest thing about Yan technique is that he’s doing almost exclusively basest of the basest stuff - 1-2 or 1-1-2 again and again. And it works!
     
  6. AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

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    Maybe we don't disagree and it's just the wording we both used!

    Legitimately excellent!

    Pettis actually didn't come to mind, but I think that's because he hasn't been effective in a long time. For me Silva is more of a puncher who CAN throw some kicks decently but I wouldn't be mad at someone saying he's an elite kicker, I just wouldn't personally agree.

    So for me it's Aldo, Cro Cop, Adesanya, Cosmo Alexandre, Wonderboy and Machida for sure

    I'd also include Katsunori Kikuno who was a fantastic kicker at one point, before he decided that his face was his shield.

    And while their kicking itself isn't necessarily visually striking, Alexander Volkanovski's technical kickboxing is legitimately excellent, he isn't as explosive a leg kicker as Aldo but he lands with excellent consistency

    Donald Cerrone would make my list too, doesn't have the prettiest kicks technically, but his work as a kicker is outstanding, not just the range of kicks but how well he boxes into them, think he had 6 high kick knock outs? And his low kicks have always been a mainstay. I genuinely think if it weren't for the fact he fought McGregor around 2015/2016 when both of them were relevant, he likely would have come out on top, even if that was a late career resurgence for him

    I think it's fair to say the best kicker is probably Cro Cop overall though, even in kickboxing he was one of the stand outs
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  7. Gym Turtle White Belt

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    Maybe I could be reading it wrong, but maybe the disagreement is on what aspects of boxing work for MMA and which ones don't? I could be reading it wrong though.

    Mainly gathering that information from these:
     
  8. mirko>anyone Black Belt

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    My point is this.
    Could improvements be made? Sure, drastically even.

    Throwing hands is the “default” MMA position. It’s where the fight starts, and generally one of the safer ways to feel out timing, movement, etc.

    But boxing in MMA is done under the auspices that, at any time, the whole dynamic can change instantly. You can get away with throwing with “lower level” technique if you’re Henry Cejudo because your opponents defense hinges on the contingency that you could shoot, clinch, throw a kick, or anything MMA encompasses. If you know your opponent can only throw punches under the rules set for boxing, it eradicates so many factors and allows boxers to improve offensively and defensively in a huge way. So in my opinion, while the technique can absolutely be refined, of course, it’s still comparing apples to oranges.

    We see the superior boxer lose all the time in MMA. I think some of it might come down to coaching and maybe refining technique, but at the end of the day you have to delegate time to other intricacies of the sport.
     
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  9. Gym Turtle White Belt

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    Definitely, we've seen it with Sean Woodson and Julian Erosa too. Where Erosa subbed Woodson once he took the fight to the ground.

    Someone could also argue that it takes the right person to make a technique work though. Someone like Cejudo could possibly get away with techniques that makes him more susceptible to takedowns. Nobody can really give a definite answer on what works and what doesn't work from a given discipline in MMA because the sport is so new.

    I also feel like what works also hinges on the pool of competition someone is facing. Outside of WW, there aren't that many wrestlers, which gives fighters more liberty to play with aspects of boxing that wouldn't work against a wrestler.
     
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  10. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    The basics done at a high level looks like next level stuff. I remember when Cowboy KO'd Story and ppl were all up about it talking about how his combination was some secret fu jizz. It was just a 1,2,3,kick that we all learn and implement early on.

    I'm all for the basics, the bread and butter. They're practical, efficient, and economical on your tank; Plus being put in a state (competing) where cognitive thinking is thrown out the window faster than a country girl's virginity in a big city: "simple" and efficient is a must. More moving parts, the worse it will rear its head in the long term.

    I'd put Barboza on that list too
     
  11. eternaldarkness Red Belt

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    I think the style of boxer has a big impact. Floyd Patterson had a terrible style for mma (ducked low) but someone like liston would be a monster in mma (with adequate grappling of course).
     
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  12. FadeLess Silver Belt

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    holy shit, thats beautiful !!
     
  13. zapataxiv Red Belt

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    The disagreement lies in your wording that “some subtleties aren’t practical”
    Vs
    AndyMaBobs who says there aren’t any impracticalities it’s just the context that changes
    Not to put words in either of your mouths but I think the elephant in the room is the old stereotype that boxing doesn’t work for mma or kickboxing etc... because of head movement or excessive head movement. Or that certain punches are less viable because of glove size, or certain styles and guards are less applicable because of glove size and types of attacks available.
     
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  14. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    when in doubt, just bang
     
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  15. mirko>anyone Black Belt

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    There’s truth to both philosophies.
     
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  16. zapataxiv Red Belt

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    Where do you draw the line what subtleties are you saying are impractical?
     
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  17. zapataxiv Red Belt

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    the bang gods will not be denied
     
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  18. zapataxiv Red Belt

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    Is it true that leben was elevated to sainthood when he sacrificed the TUF house door to the lord of drunken haymakers?
     
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  19. AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

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    I think you hit the nail on the head there

    A lot of people think that head movement doesn't work in MMA, kickboxing etc - but not only is it not true even in professional muay thai, where everyone has a degree of head movement - in MMA you seem to be able to get away with even more, despite all the same weapons that would in theory cause a risk
     
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  20. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    For sure, venerated and immortalized as saint TUF1
     
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