Law The War On Asian-American Students' Success - NYC Mayor’s Plan To Scrap Entrance Exam Has Failed

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Arkain2K, Oct 12, 2015.

  1. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    No, I wouldn't call anyone racist because I know that personalities don't always mesh.

    Shoe on the other foot?

    I posted a link to about when I was hiring staff. I realize that sometimes the best paper resume isn't the best candidate for the job. I've hired staff for years. And while you need a certain level of technical ability for any job, you also know that some people don't have what it takes to do more than the technical stuff at a high level.

    Take a lawyer - it's great that you can cite the law backwards and forwards and know the procedural guidelines like the back of your hands. But can you persuade an adversarial party to take a course of action that's in your client's best interest? Can you make a judge like you within a few minutes of the trial starting? Can you convince a decision maker to hire you over the charming guy he met 20 minutes ago? None of that is on your resume.

    Now before we go too far down the road. See my other post about donors, legacies, athletes, students from select high schools. Factor that into the conversation and then come back to me with the race stuff. Are Asians large donors? Are they legacy admits? Are they big athletes? Did they go to the select high schools? ARe they low income applicants? If they are - were they not admitted while others who met those criteria were?

    Because Asians make up 20+% of the Harvard population while they're only 5% of the population. So, there's no discrimination strictly on the numbers - they're over-represented. So to say discrimination - you need to show that Asians are being discriminated against even within these non-race areas with specific lower performance - donors, legacies, athletes, low income students.
     
  2. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Actually, you're assigning bad faith to Harvard and then filtering things through that lens. A neutral analysis requires that we first acknowledge what Harvard is looking for. You call it bad faith but you're substituting your search criteria for theirs, that isn't a legitimate point.

    If someone won't treat their criteria as legitimate then they are being unfair to the decision making party. It's like saying you're looking for leggy blondes and someone says "Stop turning down all the busty brunettes." It's your criteria, not theirs. You know what you're looking for and you're the one who's going to be stuck with the outcomes. Now, if you say you're looking for leggy blondes but keep turning them away for waifish red heads - now there's a problem.

    You can't substitute your criteria for Harvard's. You have to see if Harvard is discriminating based on their own criteria.
     
  3. Hog-train

    Hog-train Brown Belt

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    You keep saying the same thing over and over.

    No one is refuting that legacies, athletes, donors, people from poorer socioeconomic backgrounds, etc don't have a leg up.

    Who is refuting that? I already acknowledged that and that isn't new or surprising information.

    Legacies, donors, children of staff or being an athlete is more of an advantage than being black or Latino. Again I have to reiterate - NO ONE IS REFUTING THAT.

    But that's NOT what the lawsuit brought by the Students for Fair Admissions is about. The data analysis shows- (TAKING OUT LEGACIES,DONORS, etc) that Asians have to score far higher than other groups ALL ELSE EQUAL. Except for this "personal score."

    They analyzed admission data while TAKING OUT legacies, children of staff, etc from the data pool. They are trying to isolate the effect of RACE in admissions.

    The Ivy's have already fought in court to be able to consider race in admissions. So don't try to claim race is not a factor. Race obviously plays a role.

    We already know for a fact - race is a factor in admissions. The question is how much of a factor should it play.

    I know you're a lawyer and intelligent so you know exactly what I'm saying. So stop being deliberately obtuse and obfuscating the issue with points that NO ONE IS REFUTING.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
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  4. Hog-train

    Hog-train Brown Belt

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    Also - Pan American - I don't believe you are looking at this issue objectively and being honest. You have an agenda to minimize the role of race in admissions.

    You have already been caught LYING in this thread about this.

    You claimed the leveling off of Asian students at Ivy Leagues correlates with their population numbers leveling off. But they didn't level off at all. Their population numbers increased exponentially and is still growing rapidly in the US.
     
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  5. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    That's not what the lawsuit is about.

    No is claiming that the average Asian test scores are not higher.

    The lawsuit alleges discrimination against Asians. To discriminate against them would mean that they are being treated differently from other students. To be treated differently would mean that (1) Given the same criteria Asians are being treated differently under the criteria. It would also mean that (2) Asians are being held to different criteria than other students.

    In Circumstance #1, you have to establish the criteria and then establish that the Asian treatment is different. Nowhere is it written that the criteria for admittance to Harvard is that the applicant must have the highest test scores and/or GPA. The criteria for admittance is that you help round out the student body in a way that furthers Harvard's education goals.

    So, whenever you discuss GPA's, SAT/ACT scores, you must discuss them within the criteria of rounding out the student body in a way that furthers Harvard's education goals.

    In Circumstance #2, you have to establish that there are 2 different criteria in play. But again, there is no criteria that states that Harvard is seeking the highest GPA, SAT/ACT scores. It is not the criteria for Asian students and it is not the criteria for non-Asian students. It simply is not a requirement for admission to Harvard.

    The criteria for admission to Harvard is that the student rounds out the student body in a way that furthers Harvard's education goals. This means that you cannot discuss any singular variable. Nor can you discuss any singular student's characteristics in a vacuum. They must be discussed in comparison to the overall Harvard student body neet.

    The reason I keep bringing up those other categories is because you keep attempting to discuss the Asian applicants solely in terms of 2 characteristics, the test scores and the personal scores. But to discuss the personal scores you have to unpack what goes into the score in its entirety. To discuss the test scores and the personal scores you have to put them in the context of the entire student body.

    For further explanation. Harvard has a humanities department. If 1000 applicants apply for the biology department and one student applies for humanities then the 1 student applying for the humanities has a greater chance of admission than any individual student applying for biology. This is not preferential treatment, it's that the humanities student is facing less competition for admission to that department.

    Swinging back to the lawsuit itself. The lawsuit alleges discrimination against Asians. That requires establishing that discrimination, as described above, is taking place even after you account for all of those other things.

    So, you cannot say that Asian test scores are really high even after the legacies, donors, athletes, etc. and that it's the other minority students who are the problem. See, those other minority students are also being affected by the legacies, donors, athletes, etc. They are bringing their own strengths and weaknesses to the campus.

    Let's make it more concrete. Harvard has a Department of African American Studies. If someone black is applying because that's what they want to major in, they are not taking a seat away from an Asian who wants to major in English - only from an Asian who also wants to major in African American studies. If a Hispanic student wants to major in art, they are not taking a seat away from an Asian student who wants to major in genetics, only from an Asian who wants to major in art.

    A student with an interest in the debate club is not taking a seat away from a student with an interest in the chess club. They are taking it away from another student interested in the debate club.

    Do you understand? You have to take the entirety of Harvard's academic and non-academic interests and determine if Asians are being discriminated against across the entire spectrum. Focusing on GPA and SAT/ACT scores essentially disregards every other element of Harvard's interests and needs.

    This is why you cannot dismiss the donor, athlete, legacies by simply saying that you don't "refute" them. An athlete, with an 83% admission rate, still have to pick a major and still takes up a seat in that major. The same for donors, legacies, the kids from the prep schools. Their impact on the admission class goes beyond their test scores.

    The personal score operates on the same criteria...except that you have no idea what goes into the criteria. I keep telling you that it covers far more than the interview (assuming you take the interview since it's not mandatory). Well, what goes into it? You can't just look at the final score and say "these students score lower on this therefore there is discrimination across the admissions apparatus." You have to look at the components of the personal score and see if there's discrimination within those components.

    Yes, I am a lawyer. I've been spending weeks trying to explain to you, not if Harvard discriminates or not (I don't know and this case doesn't matter because both sides will appeal if they lose), but that you cannot evaluate the case from the very narrow perspective that you are applying.
     
  6. nhbbear

    nhbbear Duty Belt

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    My point is simply that in professional sports, where the opportunity to make millions is very realistic, only talent seems to matter, not how diverse your fucking team is. There is very, very little diversity in most sports. Asians are underrepresented by a large margin. But there is no pressure to fix that. Why? Because of how much money is involved. Sponsors, the leagues, the gambling-billions of dollars. No one is going to be able to fuck with that. Again, why? It is a job like any other, requires talent and ability like any other job. But no diversity being forced upon them.

    Now any other job, take Silicon Valley for example, there is a big push and lots of criticism because of the lack of diversity. White and Asian males, mostly-and oh my god, we have to do something about that!!! So some Asian male designer of software, will not be hired because the company needs more diversity, even though he is probably a better fit for the job.
     
  7. nhbbear

    nhbbear Duty Belt

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    Well, I can count on one hand the number of Asian males in football, basketball, or hockey. White males are not in proportion to the population in basketball, and there is no 13% black in hockey. The bottom line is talent-the hands off approach due to giant sums of money, that allows the sports teams to make an almost entirely black team, or white team. That hands off approach is not permitted in business.
     
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  8. Hog-train

    Hog-train Brown Belt

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    Again stating the obvious as if it's some new information. Who the hell said Harvard is ONLY looking for the highest test scores? Show me where I said that.

    Harvard takes into account grades, scores, extracurriculars, and PERSONAL with recommendation letters and Alumni interviews as supplementary factors.

    The Asian students scored higher on average on all other factors except PERSONAL (personal score which includes diversity.)

    The lawsuit is alleging Asian students must score much higher on average for every other metric to make up for the lower scores they receive on "personal score."

    The admissions data brought forth by the Students for Fair Admissions already TAKES INTO ACCOUNT legacies, donors, athletes, etc.

    They analyzed the admissions data EXCLUDING legacies, donors, children of staff, etc.

    So if you are an Asian student that is NOT a legacy, children of staff, a donor, an athlete, etc, you will have less of a chance to get in than a white/black/latino student that is ALSO NOT a legacy, children of staff, a donor, an athlete, etc.

    They isolated the effect on race alone on admissions.

    So why do you keep bringing up legacies/donors/etc as if it is pertinent.

    Yes we know Legacies or children of donors have an advantage.

    Yes we know athletes have an advantage.

    Yes we know children of staff have an advantage.

    That's not what the lawsuit is about.

    This lawsuit is alleging preferential treatment based on race alone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  9. dontsnitch

    dontsnitch Steel Belt

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    Did you see the TM Landry story? The biggest problem of AA is that kids who do not deserve to be placed in elite spots will drop out or fail, but they don't care about that part. As long as they get accepted, it doesn't matter after that.
     
  10. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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  11. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Washington State Plans to Restore Affirmative Action
    By Scott Jaschik | May 6, 2019

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    Legislature repeals ban imposed by voters, but opponents of consideration of race in admissions are already mobilizing for a new vote.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...-legislature-votes-restore-affirmative-action
     
  12. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Diversity By Decree: Is NYC's New Policy For Elite High Schools Constitutional?


    New York City’s specialized high schools (SHS), which include Bronx Science and Stuyvesant, are among America’s most prestigious.

    Asian-Americans consistently outperform other groups on the admissions tests for these schools, and now constitute a majority of their students. In an effort to increase diversity, New York has changed its admissions policies, starting in 2020, to effectively bar applicants from predominantly Asian-American middle schools from 20% of the seats offered at SHS.

    In response, parents and Asian-American advocacy groups, represented by the nonprofit Pacific Legal Foundation, have sued, arguing that the new policy amounts to unconstitutional discrimination. On February 21, Manhattan Institute hosted a panel to discuss the mandate through the lens of constitutional law, education policy, and real-world effects on students.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  13. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    At forum on NYC's high school admissions, frustration rules
    The mayor and schools chancellor found little support for their plan to eliminate an admissions exam for the city’s specialized high schools.
    By Chris Fuchs | April 12, 2019

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    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-...h-school-admissions-frustration-rules-n993966
     
  14. Arkain2K

    Arkain2K Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    Amid Racial Divisions, Mayor’s Plan to Scrap Elite School Exam Fails
    By Eliza Shapiro and Vivian Wang | June 24, 2019

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    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/nyregion/specialized-schools-nyc-deblasio.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  15. Ayin

    Ayin Black Belt

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    Such an interesting issue.

    As one of the people interviewed noted when pointing out the drop in enrolment among black students, the best place to try and intervene to correct the decline is much earlier in the system, before students have fallen behind, or early enough on that gifted children receive the preparation they need.

    To me, that seems like the obviously better path, so much so that even if the admissions test was scrapped, I would personally still want the earlier-intervention instituted, as it would have a more lasting and important effect, even if the admissions numbers had been “shored up” by other means.

    Of course the downside of that plan is that it takes time. It is not going to effect children taking tests next year, only ones coming into the education system next year. And even then if it was immediately implemented (oh, and a plan was researched and-designed and rolled out well) it would likely miss the mark and require many years of work and adjustment (what are the chances of getting something that large and complicated right on the first go?).


    So you could either 1- begin to fix the system and wait to see the effects on admissions numbers or 2- fix the admissions numbers and hope that fixes the system.

    1’s not guaranteed to work, at all if ever, and 2 is guaranteed to “work” immediately.
     
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  16. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    Its interesting. The idea of making people better seems to be dead. Its now more about leveling things out. I see this in schools too, where exceptional kids are no longer identified but instead waste away with the fuck offs.
     
  17. LogicalInsanity

    LogicalInsanity Free RR! Belt

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    Yup, it's no longer about who is the most qualified, or best person for the job.

    but rather, what is "most fair" and all about "equity."

    This is precisely why leftists like Pan and many others hate Asians.
     
  18. Seano

    Seano Hands of bone

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    My daughter is in 7th grade and was reading Tale of Despereaux for school. She read that shit in the second grade. She's doing math she did in elementary school too. Its bullshit.
     
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  19. LogicalInsanity

    LogicalInsanity Free RR! Belt

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    so what you're saying is...your daughter is a genius?
     
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  20. Possum Jenkins

    Possum Jenkins 3 Piece with a Soda Belt

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    Soros has made it clear that once white genocide is complete, Asians are next
     
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