Law Affirmative Action Abolished: U.S Supreme Court Outlaws Racial Discrimination In College Admissions.

[Cayenne]

With many of the East Asian countries (e.g. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore), it surely is not just an immigrant issue. It is that these countries value education much more so compared to other countries. There is a tendency (especially by the people on the left) to deny or to lie about the level in which these East Asian countries (not just the immigrants but the entire countries as a whole) value education.

It's one thing to value good education, it's another to value nothing else but education. Helicopter parenting is objectively bad, there's been studies about it, look it up. The thing that's never mentioned by Asian society ass lickers is the human cost of valuing nothing but education. These are people that have fierce competition to make their children enter the best kindergartens. Places like Japan have very high suicide rates for teens. Some kids kill themselves because they failed their entrance exams and failing your entrance exam to a good university is a death sentence to your future career. Kids or young adults that drop out of school are fucked because of the social stigma associated with it, many kill themselves because they live in a society that doesn't allow them error.

 

[Rod1]

So when a Asian person gets in to a elite school it is just because he is good at taking tests. When a black person gets into an elite school it is because he is passionate and motivated?

That is incredibly racist of you. America has been trying to keep the Asian man down for as long as he;s been in the United States. The anti Chinese law in Cali, the Japanese plantations in Hawaii, and now colleges blatant discrimination against Asian Americans.
It always gets rationalized by comments like that above. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Nice strawman you got there.

I merely stating that by looking at the tests you cant tell the potential of an individual, anyone who enters an elite school is elite. Im merely saying that a kid that gets a 9 coming from the hood is more likely to be more talented than a kid who got 9.5 and has been groomed his entire life.

There is a reason why talent finders get paid millions, seeing results is easy, any idiot can see results, seeing potential, now thats something else.

Derek Jeter for example batted .202 in the minor leagues in his first professional season, by numbers alone he should had been sent home right?

 

[panamaican]

Part of the problem is education has become fetishized. Some people act like all differences could be leveled if everybody got the same schooling.

But it's nonsense. Even if everybody had top notch basketball coaching starting early in life, a 5'2 kid with no vertical isn't making the NBA. It's just as dumb to think everybody is destined for elite magnet high schools then the Ivy League.

This is the other side of the immigrant vs. native conversation. Our immigrant population is just much smarter than our native population. Attributable to the fact that one of the easiest ways to gain entry is through either a student visa or a work visa.

Student visas obviously self-select for those immigrants smart enough to gain entry to a U.S. college, dedicated enough to graduate and talented enough to land a U.S. job.

Work visas self-select for talent. No U.S. company is taking on the regulatory burden and additional expense for those employees unless they are worth the headache. Your average immigrant isn't getting a work visa.

Since I like stats...

21% of all immigrant students are studying in the U.S. A full 1/5th of everyone smart enough to go to a foreign college is coming here.

We admit approximately 1 million people to this country annually. We also admit over 600k college students. That should tell us that we're pulling in almost as many foreign students annually as our general immigration population. If we were ball parking percentages it would mean that almost 40% of the new arrivals are going to be college educated and that's before we start factoring in the work visas.

That means that we're essentially siphoning the most talented people from around the world to form our immigrant population. It's no surprise that they're killing the natives in terms of production.

 

[Rod1]

And this is really the other side of the coin of this issue.

Like the Pablo said, the hardest workers deserve the rewards, bit at what point or age should that dedication begin? Is life so competitive that it needs to start soone and sooner?

I've known parents that focus on college applications when their kid isn't even in the preschool yet. Is that better parenting? At what point is it time to start making sure your kid is getting out in front of the pack?

Well we don't want to penalize those that go the extra mile, do we really benefit from making the lives of our children so competitive, or focus on that one race?

The hardest worker doesnt means squat, im pretty sure that a mexican illegal working in the californian fields picking strawberries works harder than Bill Gates, society only values results, results that are a combination of talent and hard work.

0 talent x 1000 work is still zero, so finding our natural talents is more important at the kid-teenage level than trying to ace a subject that we may not even know if we have a natural aptitude for.

 

[Rod1]

If it was an immigrant thing you would have mentioned Mexicans too. Or Dominicans, Guatemalans, Somalis, Polish or a number of other groups. Its well-known that blacks from Africa and the Caribbean make up a disproportionate percentage of the black population at top schools. They also benefit from affirmative action and foreign aid (did obamas dad pay the full tuition to harvard? The answe is pronably not known but I'd say ots unlikely)

And asians who have parents who were born here still do well. Jews do well and most of them have ancestors who came around 1900

Obama is a mulatto, raised in a rich white family, with a rich white grandma, racist much?

 

[Thunderflash500]

China cant really bitch about head starts when they have been using natural gas and coal for thousands of years, one cant simply ignore the fact that the west is the leader when it comes to innovation and creativity.

Japan for example is the third largest economy in the world and has been first world for decades as of now, yet they only have 2 in the top 200 universities in the world.

Making a one fits all system based on tests only creates good employees.

So Japan is one of the largest economies, isn't that evidence alone that they some sort of creativity? They have nearly no natural resources and still succeed. If everyone just followed orders would they be so successful?

Btw after playing their RPGs, watching their anime I'd say they are creative.

The west had a major lead over Asian nations. Now Japan and China are top GDP nations. South Korea is another rising nation which competes in technology and is doing pretty good. I'm using my Samsung phone right now. Im not saying the west doesn't have it's advantages. But I think we are ignoring or downplaying Asian advantage.

 

[Rod1]

With many of the East Asian countries (e.g. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore), it surely is not just an immigrant issue. It is that these countries value education much more so compared to other countries. There is a tendency (especially by the people on the left) to deny or to lie about the level in which these East Asian countries (not just the immigrants but the entire countries as a whole) value education.

Indeed, asians are pretty good at the high school level, but they are pathetic (relative to their level of high school) when it comes to tertiary education. Japan which is the poster boy of asian success had like 2 out of 200 top universities.

The west shouldnt copy the east, when its blatantly obvious the west actually produces the better professionists and academics.

 

[panamaican]

This is an immigration issue + the culture issue. Basically, if you import randomly selected samples of 1000 households from Singapore and 1000 households from Mexico to USA, after 1 generation, kids from Singapore would severely outperform kids from Mexico. Some of the Asian countries (e.g. Japan, Korea, Singapore) really put too much importance on education such that it can be unhealthy for the kids but you cannot argue with performance.

But that's not what the data shows.

Also, we don't randomly select 1000 households to come to the U.S. that's the fallacy that makes people attribute the success to Asian-ness and not immigrant-ness. We have strong selection processes in place for our immigrant populations.

I just presented simple numbers on the proportionality of native to immigrants per ethnic group and you've basically ignored it for the standard culture argument. I included links that state that immigrants are outperforming natives. You're ignoring that too. This comes from a study done by an Asian professor at Hopkins.

From that study - immigrant Hispanics kids do just as well as immigrant Asian kids given similar socioeconomic backgrounds.
http://nbclatino.com/2012/09/11/stu...ildren-do-better-in-school-than-us-born-kids/

At some point, we have to follow the data.

 

[Rod1]

So Japan is one of the largest economies, isn't that evidence alone that they some sort of creativity? They have nearly no natural resources and still succeed. If everyone just followed orders would they be so successful?

Btw after playing their RPGs, watching their anime I'd say they are creative.

The west had a major lead over Asian nations. Now Japan and China are top GDP nations. South Korea is another rising nation which competes in technology and is doing pretty good. I'm using my Samsung phone right now. Im not saying the west doesn't have it's advantages. But I think we are ignoring or downplaying Asian advantage.

Relative to what? also im not saying that all asians are uncreative, the level of creativity in asians is probably the same as in all other ethnic groups.

And thats the problem, its harder to separate the wheat from the chaff among asians, because they all seem pretty smart.

 

[mtron929]

Indeed, asians are pretty good at the high school level, but they are pathetic (relative to their level of high school) when it comes to tertiary education. Japan which is the poster boy of asian success had like 2 out of 200 top universities.

The west shouldnt copy the east, when its blatantly obvious the west actually produces the better professionists and academics.

Not really true. Asians are very good at college/graduate level as well. Also within the world of science, many of us freely acknowledge that in certain fields like materials science and chemistry, the best research work are being done by the Chinese nowadays. I think you need to update your information.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Why is it the best?

The main reason is that Finnish students score just as high as East Asian students, but they spend far less time in the classroom.

People are justified when it comes to being concerned about the education system in North America becoming too similar to the education in East Asia. My brother in law moved to Canada from Korea so his daughters would not have to endure the ridiculous hours students in Korea spend studying to pass exams. Instead of forcing kids to study countless hours every day to pass exams, we should find a way to make the education here more efficient. Copying the East Asian system is not a solution when it comes to improving education.

In Korea, there are many people with masters degrees working minimum wage jobs because everyone is highly educated, but there are limited opportunities for people with such a high level of education. Not everybody can be a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer and so on.

Unfortunately, many western parents do not want a more efficient education system, they just want to coddle their children and prevent them from having to put an effort into something. That is why their kids are getting their asses kicked in education and the workplace by immigrant children.

 

[Cayenne]

So Japan is one of the largest economies, isn't that evidence alone that they some sort of creativity? They have nearly no natural resources and still succeed. If everyone just followed orders would they be so successful?

Japan is also one of the most ineffective in the workplace. They work more hours than the west yet get less done. Compare that to Germany, the best economy in Europe yet they work less hours than the French. We should strive to be efficient. Japan is not a good example to follow.

 

[Rod1]

Not really true. Asians are very good at college/graduate level as well. Also within the world of science, many of us freely acknowledge that in certain fields like materials science and chemistry, the best research work are being done by the Chinese nowadays. I think you need to update your information.

Again, strawman.

The asians that actually enter the elite WESTERN schools are of course as elite as everyone else in said school, but the fact is that a lot of asians get rejected despite having high grades.

 

[mtron929]

But that's not what the data shows.

Also, we don't randomly select 1000 households to come to the U.S. that's the fallacy that makes people attribute the success to Asian-ness and not immigrant-ness. We have strong selection processes in place for our immigrant populations.

I just presented simple numbers on the proportionality of native to immigrants per ethnic group and you've basically ignored it for the standard culture argument. I included links that state that immigrants are outperforming natives. You're ignoring that too. This comes from a study done by an Asian professor at Hopkins.

From that study - immigrant Hispanics kids do just as well as immigrant Asian kids given similar socioeconomic backgrounds.
http://nbclatino.com/2012/09/11/stu...ildren-do-better-in-school-than-us-born-kids/

At some point, we have to follow the data.

Well, to even start off this conversation, we need to at least agree upon something. Do you agree that the countries such as South Korea, Japan, and Singapore value education much more so than a country like Mexico? After this, we can start digging into data/numbers and how to best interpret whether or not the value in education (as well as the different styles of teaching) is relevant to what TS has posted.

 

[bad seed]

99% of these High school "geniuses" have 0 social skills

most of the Ivy League bound nerds from my HS- the virginal shut-ins with no social life type- are now living picture perfect lives. High paying job, likeminded professional wife, huge homes, lavish parties, and jetsetting around the world. I've heard rumors of several of them involved in high-end wifeswapping/sex party type deals with other professionals. And I know for a fact some are on TRT/juice/nootropics [moldafinil, amphetamines, pscyhedelics]. They are making up for their lost teenage years with a VENGEANCE, and doing it better than we ever could.

The nerds do have the last laugh in this case.

I can still beat em up tho.

 

[mtron929]

Again, strawman.

The asians that actually enter the elite WESTERN schools are of course as elite as everyone else in said school, but the fact is that a lot of asians get rejected despite having high grades.

This is what you stated: "Indeed, asians are pretty good at the high school level, but they are pathetic (relative to their level of high school) when it comes to tertiary education." I am saying that this is just not true at all and clearly shows your bias.

 

[Rod1]

The main reason is that Finnish students score just as high as East Asian students, but they spend far less time in the classroom.

People are justified when it comes to being concerned about the education system in North America becoming too similar to the education in East Asia. My brother in law moved to Canada from Korea so his daughters would not have to endure the ridiculous hours students in Korea spend studying to pass exams. Instead of forcing kids to study countless hours every day to pass exams, we should find a way to make the education here more efficient. Copying the East Asian system is not a solution when it comes to improving education.

In Korea, there are many people with masters degrees working minimum wage jobs because everyone is highly educated, but there are limited opportunities for people with such a high level of education. Not everybody can be a Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer and so on.

Finally a post from you i can agree with.

The finnish knows by the time a kid is 16 if he is college material, if he isnt then he is channeled into vocational, so he can learn a trade and become a productive and well paid member of society.

Meanwhile the US is trying to make college professors out of hood boyz. Of course its going to fail.

 

[panamaican]

Well, to even start off this conversation, we need to at least agree upon something. Do you agree that the countries such as South Korea, Japan, and Singapore value education much more so than a country like Mexico? After this, we can start digging into data/numbers and how to best interpret whether or not the value in education (as well as the different styles of teaching) is relevant to what TS has posted.

No, I don't agree. What are you basing that claim on? Some study, a poll?

 

[mtron929]

It's one thing to value good education, it's another to value nothing else but education. Helicopter parenting is objectively bad, there's been studies about it, look it up. The thing that's never mentioned by Asian society ass lickers is the human cost of valuing nothing but education. These are people that have fierce competition to make their children enter the best kindergartens. Places like Japan have very high suicide rates for teens. Some kids kill themselves because they failed their entrance exams and failing your entrance exam to a good university is a death sentence to your future career. Kids or young adults that drop out of school are fucked because of the social stigma associated with it, many kill themselves because they live in a society that doesn't allow them error.

Shrugs. No doubt that the Asian way is not the optimal way. I don't even personally like it myself but I cannot disagree that it is effective at churning out people who attain good education and well-paying jobs later on.

 

[Rod1]

This is what you stated: "Indeed, asians are pretty good at the high school level, but they are pathetic (relative to their level of high school) when it comes to tertiary education." I am saying that this is just not true at all and clearly shows your bias.

Actually yes, compared to their relative high school level, they are pathetic.

Again RELATIVE.

One would expect a proportional number of high end universities in a zone with nearly 1.5 billion people who all would be elite high schoolers in any western nation.