Economy The U.S Made a Breakthrough Vanadium Redox Flow Battery - Then Gave the Technology to China

[AWilder]

People like Nancy Pelosi have been selling this country out to China for profit for 40 years. Now we are about to go to war so she could have one last photo op and a taxpayer funded trip to the indo pacific.

lol, this couldn't be more wrong. There's a lot to hate about Nancy but her selling out to china is some grade A copium bullshit

 

[Prutfis]

Don't forget that you still need the solar panels; so to truly go off grid would be 60k+

Don´t know about pricing. Should get cheaper as the tech evolves. We have a 6.9kwh solar on the roof. Cost was around 18k$ but this was 10 years ago.. With a batteri like this we could also run our heating on the solar 100% and never have to get anything from the grid. We have a 2300sqft house.. So if electrical and heating bills are cut to 0 that´s a good chunk of change saved. Especially for us since our heating is currently gas and prices are insane.. Might get it down to 10 years to pay itself off + the resale value of your house will also get a bump being 0 cost energy.

 

[SammyPops]

So American tax payers fund the R&D of a what could potentially be a revolutionary battery technology but the Dept of Energy gives it to China.

This seems soo dam absurd and bordering on treasonous that I wonder if there is some info missing?

same thing happened in up here (Canada) with a ebola vaccine. Also a Chinese immigrant to Canada gave the IP to China.

 

[MicroBrew]

This and similar happened under admins from both parties, all the way back to Clinton giving China missile technology - probably farther that that.

The truth in this case is probably that the DOE official was banging another Fan Fan or getting money under the table to turned a blind eye to it.

Yup, I have mentioned how Bernard Schwartz (CEO of Loral Space and Communications) who was a big time Clinton donor gave China technology that allowed their ballistic missiles to be more accurate.

 

[Arkain2K]

This makes it sound like the US invented VRFB just recently and then just gave it to China. VRFB was first successfully created in 86 at UNSW in Australia and they had the patent until 2006. Japan has been using them since 2005. It seems the US scientists just improved the tech. (by quite a bit)

There are also currenly companies funding and developing in US, EU, AUS, South Korea, South Africa and Saudi Arabia besides China.

A fridge sized battery to power your house forever with your solar???? Sign me up.

I don't know how this could be confusing in anyway:

​

They were building a battery — a vanadium redox flow battery — based on a design created by two dozen U.S. scientists at a government lab. The batteries were about the size of a refrigerator, held enough energy to power a house, and could be used for decades.

The idea for this vanadium redox battery began in the basement of a government lab, three hours southwest of Seattle, called Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. It was 2006, and more than two dozen scientists began to suspect that a special mix of acid and electrolyte could hold unusual amounts of energy without degrading. They turned out to be right.

It took six years and more than 15 million taxpayer dollars for the scientists to uncover what they believed was the perfect vanadium battery recipe. Others had made similar batteries with vanadium, but this mix was twice as powerful and did not appear to degrade the way cellphone batteries or even car batteries do. The researchers found the batteries capable of charging and recharging for as long as 30 years.

More than 5,200 miles away, a Chinese company is hard at work making the batteries in Dalian, China.

The Chinese company didn't steal this technology. It was given to them — by the U.S. Department of Energy. First in 2017, as part of a sublicense, and later, in 2021, as part of a license transfer.

​

It's the new "perfect" U.S design that ended up being transferred to China, not the older stuff that's only half as good and lasts half as long.

Now that the genie is long gone from the bottle, I can only wonder how many VRFBs currently STILL being manufactured overseas using this exact same design that the U.S patented, even after the DOE revoked the license that they shouldn't have given away for free in the first place?

I hope that whichever American company that the DOE finally get around to re-license this IP to will be able to catch up and enforce the patent rights, but the fact is we are now a decade behind on something that we revolutionized, so I don't know if I should even be mad at the foreign companies that did bring it to market while incompetent DOE officials were sitting on their hands.

 

[chardog]

"Department of Energy officials declined NPR's request for an interview to explain how the technology that cost U.S. taxpayers millions of dollars ended up in China"

If they don't want to be interviewed, I say haul all their asses to Washington. The dude who requested the tech transfer to China and knowingly breaking the licensing terms as well.

This is exactly the kind of things that warrants a Congressional hearing, but they are too busy grilling the likes of Google and Facebook.

if this cant happen, isnt it easier to just revoke the patent? Once its gone to china, it's a lost cause, all you can do now is manufacture faster than them and go to market.

 

[chardog]

I was about to say the same thing in fact flow batteries where tired in cars and where a huge failure. GE tried and failed to develop and commercialize the technology and failed. It's not very energy dense nowhere near the levels of lithium ion and solid state but good for clickbait. There is still research into it because of the cost and material availability iron and salt pretty plentiful and other materials.

2014

the battery in question is gigantic, probably not suitable for cars. for a home, the size of a refrigerator, it's essentially several tesla batteries. How many discharge cycles can it get? no mention in the article.

 

[Arkain2K]

the battery in question is gigantic, probably not suitable for cars. for a home, the size of a refrigerator, it's essentially several tesla batteries. How many discharge cycles can it get? no mention in the article.

VRFB's main advantages:

• No limit on energy capacity
• Can remain discharged indefinitely without damage
• Mixing electrolytes causes no permanent damage
• Single charge state across the electrolytes avoids capacity degradation
• Safe, non-flammable aqueous electrolyte;
• Wide operating temperature range including passive cooling.
• 15,000-20,000 charge/discharge cycles.

I think they are going to be the future for industrial-scale battery farms (currently dominated by lithium ion battery packs that quickly degrades over time) that collects green energy generated by solar and wind power, as well as the uninterruptable power supply for data centers (currently dominated by large lead-acid batteries and diesel generators).

Power companies could certainly use them in their grid to offset the spike during peak hour as well, instead of firing up their backup generators that costs everyone a ton.

 

[chardog]

VRFB's main advantages:

• No limit on energy capacity
• Can remain discharged indefinitely without damage
• Mixing electrolytes causes no permanent damage
• Single charge state across the electrolytes avoids capacity degradation
• Safe, non-flammable aqueous electrolyte;
• Wide operating temperature range including passive cooling.
• 15,000-20,000 charge/discharge cycles.

I think they are going to be the future for industrial-scale battery farms (currently dominated by lithium ion battery packs that quickly degrades over time) that collects green energy generated by solar and wind power, as well as the uninterruptable power supply for data centers (currently dominated by large lead-acid batteries and diesel generators).

I need one of these so I can say fuck you to my utility company

will revisit in 15 years, when I estimate my house battery to be dead/dying

 

[Cid]

Great news.

As an Australian I hate China as much if not more than most people on this board. On the other hand as an Australian I stand to get fucked a lot harder than most when it comes to climate change. As a country that's largely desert the ability to feed our citizens is on the line here.

Renewables are cheap now and China is leading the way on renewable energy spending in a very big way.

Unfortunately coal is also cheap which results in China also leading the way in coal energy spending as well.

This means that any advancement in the efficiency of renewables that China receives will have a greater effect on emissions than anywhere else in the world. It's a compound effect. Outspending every country means any advancement will be implemented in a substantially greater scale than anywhere else. Every extra GW of that energy is one that isn't filled by coal, their other alternative which is horrible.

 

[Arkain2K]

Too little, too late?

It's unclear if the DoE's withdrawal of Rongke's license will cause it to stop building the batteries, nor is the status of Vanadis' license clear. The Register has reached out to the government department for clarification.

At this stage, it appears withdrawing the license may have little effect: a blog post by German power company RWE in May said China is readying an 800 MWh lithium-free battery farm in Dalian that uses VRFBs, which is being built by Rongke and another Vanadis partner called Bolong New Materials. Vanadis' website describes Bolong as the exclusive producer of the mixed-acid electrolyte used in ReFlex batteries.

Vanadis continues to assert on its website that it holds exclusive rights to sell the ReFlex battery "in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East." Less clear is whether it has the rights to build and sell VRFBs in Asia, or if the US' withdrawal of a license allowing such will change anything.​

https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/04/doe_battery_tech_china/

 

[regmma123]

And what about NEF (nanoelectricfuel)? Is this not currently in development in the US?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Don´t know about pricing. Should get cheaper as the tech evolves. We have a 6.9kwh solar on the roof. Cost was around 18k$ but this was 10 years ago.. With a batteri like this we could also run our heating on the solar 100% and never have to get anything from the grid. We have a 2300sqft house.. So if electrical and heating bills are cut to 0 that´s a good chunk of change saved. Especially for us since our heating is currently gas and prices are insane.. Might get it down to 10 years to pay itself off + the resale value of your house will also get a bump being 0 cost energy.

All good points, but when I checked on our house several years back (maybe 10) it was 26k for enough solar panels to generate the yearly electricity total we used - I was on oil at the time and in 1400 Sq ft.

There was still instalation and additional hardware that I needed to buy. Was looking at a system that feeds excess back to the electric company so turns the meter back during the day and you drew from the grid at night.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Great news.

As an Australian I hate China as much if not more than most people on this board. On the other hand as an Australian I stand to get fucked a lot harder than most when it comes to climate change. As a country that's largely desert the ability to feed our citizens is on the line here.

Renewables are cheap now and China is leading the way on renewable energy spending in a very big way.

Unfortunately coal is also cheap which results in China also leading the way in coal energy spending as well.

This means that any advancement in the efficiency of renewables that China receives will have a greater effect on emissions than anywhere else in the world. It's a compound effect. Outspending every country means any advancement will be implemented in a substantially greater scale than anywhere else. Every extra GW of that energy is one that isn't filled by coal, their other alternative which is horrible.

What do the Australians have against China specifically? I know you’re close by and I have heard rumors about China buying up property in Australia but I don’t know any details.

 

[chardog]

All good points, but when I checked on our house several years back (maybe 10) it was 26k for enough solar panels to generate the yearly electricity total we used - I was on oil at the time and in 1400 Sq ft.

There was still instalation and additional hardware that I needed to buy. Was looking at a system that feeds excess back to the electric company so turns the meter back during the day and you drew from the grid at night.

somewhat complicated topic

my system was nearly 30K, but after tax incentives, 22?

lots of scammers everywhere, out here we have a teslasolar company, not affiliated with tesla........................................ they were going to charge someone I knew 45K, but it was broken down to smaller payments, so the buyer thought he had a good deal. it was the daily bus driver, I had to stop him. Buddy of mine paid 18K, thought he had a great deal....... until he found out about time of use billing and the details about him being forced onto that plan, many folks, including workers of utility companies, arent aware that they may end up paying an end of year bill! 18K doesnt include whole home battery, which you will need for TOU offset. The send to power grid AFAIK, you cannot make a profit, it wasnt designed for that. Your price you pay per kilowatt may be 35c a kilowatt, and the utility company may give you a -35c per kilowatt you give, them, however when you convert to cash, they'll give you 3c.

in a perfect scenario, you have a really big power bank, like the one mentioned in this thread, and then cut all ties to the utility company, otherwise, as long as there's a connection, there's an unfair treatment. They utility company owes me over 1K and I have months left until my yearly billing cycle..... they aint paying me that credit at their rate, so I have to use it, and I do plan on using it in the future...... cybertruck. I plan on using that excess on a future EV, assuming I have enough electric.

 

[Cid]

What do the Australians have against China specifically? I know you’re close by and I have heard rumors about China buying up property in Australia but I don’t know any details.

It's Chinese people buying property not China small but important distinction. That's not really a part of it. It's only a minor contributor to our massive housing price increase and most with a brain blame the politicians for it not China.

The main reason is we have issues is we have a massive amount of our trade done with China. They are by far the largest purchaser of our exports and the relationship we have with them would be described as one with domestic violence issues.

There's no actual violence of course but in China there's this thing called Little Emperor Syndrome. After the one child policy there was miraculously an abundance of men born with no siblings. They got everything they wanted growing up with parents who wanted more children, doting on this son is compounded creating a generation of entitled sensitive little brats. Hence "little emperor"

Basically this is the CCP. Only they're the grown version and they're on the roids. Anything that can remotely be construed as criticism is met with what can only be described as a childish temper tantrum. "Slights" are returned 10 fold with trade restrictions and childish, angry statements/threats. Anything the CCP doesn't like you saying they'll look to financially fuck you. So you walk on eggshells like the victim in a DV household.

The real big one of late was our former PM dared to suggest that international investigation is needed into the cause of that pesky covid-19. Before anybody else. He was right of course but he wasn't the person to say it. Boy did they not like that one. Then he doubled down...

Massive restrictions on trade. Angry tirades blah blah. The norm.

The media crucified him for it. Rightfully so too. He fucked up. Countries like mine who rely on China for trade should know how this fucked up relationship works. You keep your public mouth shut, you make some phone calls and join a statement with a bunch of other countries at once namely America taking the front.

You don't fucking take point.<45>

China will fuck you for that.

Everyone cops it. Jacinda Ardern (New Zealand PM) made some snide remake about our ability to handle the relationship and now they're pissed off at her siding with Biden over the Solomons/Uyghurs.

That's what it's like dealing with China.

 

[Evbo]

It's Chinese people buying property not China small but important distinction. That's not really a part of it. It's only a minor contributor to our massive housing price increase and most with a brain blame the politicians for it not China.

The main reason is we have issues is we have a massive amount of our trade done with China. They are by far the largest purchaser of our exports and the relationship we have with them would be described as one with domestic violence issues.

There's no actual violence of course but in China there's this thing called Little Emperor Syndrome. After the one child policy there was miraculously an abundance of men born with no siblings. They got everything they wanted growing up with parents who wanted more children, doting on this son is compounded creating a generation of entitled sensitive little brats. Hence "little emperor"

Basically this is the CCP. Only they're the grown version and they're on the roids. Anything that can remotely be construed as criticism is met with what can only be described as a childish temper tantrum. "Slights" are returned 10 fold with trade restrictions and childish, angry statements/threats. Anything the CCP doesn't like you saying they'll look to financially fuck you. So you walk on eggshells like the victim in a DV household.

The real big one of late was our former PM dared to suggest that international investigation is needed into the cause of that pesky covid-19. Before anybody else. He was right of course but he wasn't the person to say it. Boy did they not like that one. Then he doubled down...

Massive restrictions on trade. Angry tirades blah blah. The norm.

The media crucified him for it. Rightfully so too. He fucked up. Countries like mine who rely on China for trade should know how this fucked up relationship works. You keep your public mouth shut, you make some phone calls and join a statement with a bunch of other countries at once namely America taking the front.

You don't fucking take point.<45>

China will fuck you for that.

Everyone cops it. Jacinda Ardern (New Zealand PM) made some snide remake about our ability to handle the relationship and now they're pissed off at her siding with Biden over the Solomons/Uyghurs.

That's what it's like dealing with China.

I realise it's an insanely nuanced situation that the man on the street has little choice over, but I can't think that carte blanche capitulation is going to change anything for the better

 

[Aluminati]

Well, we uh, probably need someone to manufacture it for us now that there aren't any facilities here.

 

[HeffDoesWant]

2 dozen scientists, 6 years of research = $15m

That's $105k per year for wages, admin, site, materials and equipment .

Something is missing.


But in other news, WOW.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

Well, we uh, probably need someone to manufacture it for us now that there aren't any facilities here.

I've got just the guy to negotiate the deal. And he is already there.