Sorry for saying “trash”. (I came off like a douche there didn’t I, lol.) I just don’t agree with the list and think that there are people who have been given way too much credit Simply because of there historical standing, (Penn) or people who are there because of recent bias (Miocic) and then people who quite clearly deserve to be on there but get no mention at all (Rampage/ Alvarez).
The top3 P4P of all time from USA are all HWs
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Its is definitely a very arguable list, in many spots. I'd actually agree with Johnson being #1 or #2.
But for the sake of discussion and also that it's true USA is the only country where three havies have a legit case to be considered top3 p4p in the nation.
Not sure what you mean with historical standing regarding Penn. BJ's late career seems to dim what he did from 2001-2011 across different weightclasses, which holds especial weight in p4p recognition.
BJ was the most solid contender for p4p GOAT worldwide of that decade, along with GSP, Anderson and Fedor, by fans, pundits and especially opponents. Not any succesful fighter this decade just surpass that.
Rampage and Eddie are among the greatest LHW and LW respectively but do you think they shoukd be considered above any of the multiple American champions listed?
I guess Ben Henderson and Dominick Cruz wasted by injuries could fell off the list...
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I'd probably have MM in the top 3 personally.
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Me too, honestly.
But just for the sake of discussion and that USA happens to be the only country where three havies have a legit case to be considered top3 p4p in their nation.
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Mighty Mouse is #1 tbh
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Probably the cleanest. Jones is undefeated though, in a division with more money on it, and also has more finishes I think.
Johnson can be very well above Miocic and Cormier, but they still have a legit case imo.
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word i knew somthing was wrong. no rampage
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Arguably top15, no way Rampage is above anybody in the top10
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in my heart
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well, jones is not undefeated. he lost to that deaf guy
unless you want to go "everyone knows blah blah"
well guess what, then everyone knows jones lost to reyes and santos
and that mighty mouse beat DJ
and no, DJ has more finishes in title fights
DJ was a much more dominant champ
c'mon GIVE THE MAN HIS DUE, HE IS CRIMINALLY UNDERRATED
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Comparing a freak DQ with a close decision to 5 rounds?
Jones is undefeated, stop with the weak sauce
Jones is often mentioned as GOAT by fellow top fighters and opponents. Do not pretend you know better than them, even if DJ has a case.
Fair or not, LHW gets more recognition than Flyweight because it also attracts much more money, and this is PRIZEFIGHTING, so do the math.
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- Mighty Mouse at #4
- Miocic above Cormier just because he beat him at his own natural, heavier weight (and by a miraculous comeback in the first fight)
- Max Holloway below Couture just because Captain America won two belts in a weaker, less matured era at a weight class where the difference, while greater in raw poundage, is negligible in terms of strength and power (ex. look at lifting totals for Oly lifters or Powerlifters in the historical 100kg-105kg weight classes versus anything heavier-- including Absolute divisions).
Furthermore, the power required to meet minimums for facile knockout capability against the largest, strongest opponents is well surpassed on average by the time you reach LHW weights. Even the advantage in reach at HW vs. LHW is generally smaller as a relative biometric-- especially reach. There is a +1.5" difference (2.13%) from FW to LW while there is a +1.1" difference (1.49%) from LHW to HW.
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- Mighty Mouse at #4
- Miocic above Cormier just because he beat him at his own natural, heavier weight (and by a miraculous comeback in the first fight)
- Max Holloway below Couture just because Captain America won two belts in a weaker, less matured era at a weight class where the difference, while greater in raw poundage, is negligible in terms of strength and power (ex. look at lifting totals for Oly lifters or Powerlifters in the historical 100kg-105kg weight classes versus anything heavier-- including Absolute divisions).
Furthermore, the power required to meet minimums for facile knockout capability against the largest, strongest opponents is well surpassed on average by the time you reach LHW weights. Even the advantage in reach at HW vs. LHW is generally smaller as a relative biometric-- especially reach. There is a +1.5" difference (2.13%) from FW to LW while there is a +1.1" difference (1.49%) from LHW to HW.
1. Mighty Mouse could very well be top3 - he actually is in my book - or even #1.
But for the sake of discussion, it's stil true that USA is the only country where three heavies have a legit case to be considered top3 p4p in the nation.
And yeah, Cormier and Miocic have a case in USA. Mainly because it's undeniable that heavier divisions attract much, much more money than Flyweight - especially in MMA at this stage - and it's called prizefighting for a reason
2. Because of that and because he is regarded as the greatest champion in the abolute division in UFC history. He beat basically every great HW of this decade - except Cain who got wasted by injuries - most of them by finish.
3. I think being succesful across diferent weightclass holds especial weight in p4p dicussions.
Everyone listed in the top10 is either the undisputed #1 of all time in his division or a multiple division champ, actually except Holloway.
You can downplay the challenge of a LHW taking on HWs but the fact is Liddell, Tito, Rua or Rampage prefered not to deal with Sylvia's reach or Rizzo/Gonzaga's power. Couture did and succed in championship fights, apart from doing so at LHW too.
Not only is he a two division champ, is also tied for the record for most wins in UFC Heavyweight Championship bouts with Stipe.
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The fact that Dominick Cruz is only listed as an honorable mention is just as baffling as putting a repeated PED cheater on top of it. P4P will always be difficult and ultimately pointless, but sometimes they just lack any objectivity too blatantly to even consider
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Can you ellaborate on that?
Where do you think Cruz should be ranked? Bad luck that injuries only allowed him to stay in the elite for so long but he just did not enough to surpass the long body of work of everyone listed top10 in the OP imo
If we bring the PED issue to the discussion we left with just a couple of presumably clean champions
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I don't think there's a need to presume anything, if someone somehow managed to get through their career without being busted there's no way for us to know they ever did, so unless we want to delegitimize everyone just to be safe we have to take the risk to be wrong about some individuals.
With Cruz, he may not have been active for about half of the time he was the undefeated best in his division, but he still racked up a strong list of victories over top 5 ranked opponents in that time, won the belt twice (three times if we want to nitpick), and if we factor in that his body was a broken mess the second time around that's actually a plus much rather than a minus given he beat TJ who's also been caught cheating for a substance that he's been accused of using by former teammates a long time before. To me his record looks a lot like that of Mighty Mouse and prime Jose Aldo. Demetrious is a top 3 among US-Americans guaranteed in my opinion, so I'd place Cruz in the top 5 at the very least. The asterisk that he could've had an even more memorable career without the injuries will always be there, of course, that's just the sad reality.
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Mighty Mouse below Cormier and Miocic is a fucking joke, dude. This is coming from someone who constantly bitches about P4P lists being a glorified, imaginary Napoleonic belt to hype smaller men because they need it. It's marketing. Everyone wants to watch the King of the Jungle, no matter who it is or how strong the division, whereas it's very hard to get people excited about the King of the Meerkats.
MM had 11 consecutive title defenses. That's the record. MM's title reign lasted 2142 days. That's second only to Silva, but MM was more active, and he has never tested positive for a banned substance. It's also ahead of GSP-- the GOAT of the fucking sport. Did he even lose a round during that reign before he ran into Cejudo? I can't remember. Maybe.
How much more dominant does a guy have to be to get P4P respect? What possible argument could forward Stipe's name above his? What, the fact there has never been a truly great HW reign to rival Stipe's relatively modest offering? A reign that includes two wins against a natural LHW named Cormier?
C'mon.
He fought a 37-year-old Arlovski. Given, AA was sailing at that moment, but Stipe delivered the first defeat to AA in what became a 5-loss streak, and a 4-9-1 stretch in the twilight of his career.
Mark Hunt is a great fighter, but he was just 10-9 in MMA when Stipe fought him.
Roy Nelson is highly recognizable, we all loved him, but did he ever even break into the Top 5? By ELO ratings his peak ranking during his career was #10.
Ngannou is a monster, but he was green when Miocic shocked the world, and showed what an unintimidated, experienced champion can do. Highly impressive, and one of his strongest wins, but Ngannou turned around and lost to Lewis. He wasn't unbeatable, and he wasn't what he is going to become as a future champion.
Cormier, as great as he is, is a natural LHW. His entire wrestling career he competed between 183-212 pounds. He only left LHW in MMA because he couldn't beat Bones. How much P4P mojo does it really add to Stipe's legacy that he was (barely) able to turn in back-to-back victories against the bridesmaid in the division under him?
Don't get me wrong. Between Overeem, prime JDS, Werdum, a motivated Cormier, and a thunderous phenom like Ngannou, he has accrued the best UFC HW legacy, ever. No doubt. But cleaned out the division he certainly did not. Get real. His first Top 10 win, if it was that, was against Roy in 2013. You're not cleaning out any division with 11 top wins in 7 years. Not enough frequency. I don't know how to define that, but I think maintaining a stretch of at least 3 years where you accept the highest ranking challenger you haven't beaten while having beaten every single guy in the Top 5 sometime in the past, snapshotted at any point during that stretch, would be a pretty good start. You're literally waiting on prospects to prove themselves against those vanquished opponents in the Top 5 to give you a new meaningful match. That was GSP for like 5 years.
Right this moment he hasn't faced Blaydes, Lewis, Rozenstruik, Volkov.
Great HWs of the 2010's he didn't beat: Cain, Barnett, Kharitonov, Mir.
High contenders of the 2010's he didn't beat: Bader, Minakov, Rothwell, Kongo, Bigfoot, Browne.
I realize not every guy there is in the UFC, and some were last great before Stipe really entered his prime, let's say around 2013, but I'm putting the brakes on your hyperbole. He sure as shit has not beaten "basically every great HW of the past decade".
Being extraordinarily dominant in one divisions matters a helluva lot more than being ordinarily champion in two.
That's why Aldo and Holloway are undoubtedly going to be remembered as greater FWs than Conor.
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But that's only true because you fucked up and didn't put DJ first.
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Agreed, fyi Rd 5 vs homminick
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1. I definitely see the case for Johnson.
The "Kings of the Jungle" have a case above him imo though, for the same reason that, fair or not, Finito Lopez is hardly listed among top p4p boxers of all time despite defending his belt against a record-breaking 21 opponents and retire undefeated.
Becoming two division champ as Cejudo did would have made Johnson's case undeniable imo.
Said that, I wonder if DJ could have competed at straweight in case it was a thing, he is not big even at Flyweight.
DJ was a part-time fighter until 2012. Hard to give same credit to prizefighting accomplishments in a division with the biggest prize than a division where its prize is barely enough to make a living, if you get the hyperbole.
2.
If we made a top10 HW ranking from 2010-2020 - which is the decade Stipe fought in - I'd say Miocic beat everyone on the list except Cain.
Maybe you can sneak a Lesnar at the bottom who he didnt face (Miocic would have starched him though) but it's fair to say he fought the best of his time.
You can downplay his competition - HW tends to be shallow - just like Tim Elliot, Ray Borg, John Moraga, etc can be downplayed as "not so great" competition for a p4p GOAT contender.
A guy who has a solid case to be the best HW ever in MMA, or in other words, who would be favoured to beat literally every man who ever stepped into a cage/ring regardless of weight has a claim to be right up there in the p4p converstion imo.
Greater FWs sure. But greater p4p?
Given that Conor has fucked it up in recent years probably not anymore but he was certainly in his way after outclassing FW champ Aldo and LW champ Eddie to became two division champ.
If he had followed that path he would be above Max or Aldo p4p no matter if they built a better resume at FW.
Anyways Max is not the undisputed GOAT in his division, has just lose twice - even if close decisions - to another FW who neither is the GOAT, and has not beat any bigger man than him, which I insist its usually a very detemining factor in P4P considerations almost by definition, even if not indispensable
The "Kings of the Jungle" have a case above him imo though, for the same reason that, fair or not, Finito Lopez is hardly listed among top p4p boxers of all time despite defending his belt against a record-breaking 21 opponents and retire undefeated.
Becoming two division champ as Cejudo did would have made Johnson's case undeniable imo.
Said that, I wonder if DJ could have competed at straweight in case it was a thing, he is not big even at Flyweight.
DJ was a part-time fighter until 2012. Hard to give same credit to prizefighting accomplishments in a division with the biggest prize than a division where its prize is barely enough to make a living, if you get the hyperbole.
2.
If we made a top10 HW ranking from 2010-2020 - which is the decade Stipe fought in - I'd say Miocic beat everyone on the list except Cain.
Maybe you can sneak a Lesnar at the bottom who he didnt face (Miocic would have starched him though) but it's fair to say he fought the best of his time.
You can downplay his competition - HW tends to be shallow - just like Tim Elliot, Ray Borg, John Moraga, etc can be downplayed as "not so great" competition for a p4p GOAT contender.
A guy who has a solid case to be the best HW ever in MMA, or in other words, who would be favoured to beat literally every man who ever stepped into a cage/ring regardless of weight has a claim to be right up there in the p4p converstion imo.
Greater FWs sure. But greater p4p?
Given that Conor has fucked it up in recent years probably not anymore but he was certainly in his way after outclassing FW champ Aldo and LW champ Eddie to became two division champ.
If he had followed that path he would be above Max or Aldo p4p no matter if they built a better resume at FW.
Anyways Max is not the undisputed GOAT in his division, has just lose twice - even if close decisions - to another FW who neither is the GOAT, and has not beat any bigger man than him, which I insist its usually a very detemining factor in P4P considerations almost by definition, even if not indispensable
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