the "this guy with X months of training" Sherdog meme

[Mondo Freaks]

Khalil Mack HW champ just by watching MMA Youtube vids.

 

[Benjamin Burton]

brock lesnar is what happens when an a level athlete enters the ufc. he "is" an a level. hes a++. his combine stats were ridiculous and better than even guys like ray lewis who everyone here would agree is a++ myself included. his bench stats are amazing only roughly 20 nfl players in history have done more 225 reps. all of his stats are comparable to jj watt who everyone here would agree is one of the most supreme athletes on earth. he didnt get into the nfl because he kept suplexing motherfuckers on the chiefs team in the preseason game (yes im serious). it had nothing to do with his athleticism.

 

[Ken Fresno]

This is a blanket reply to many Sherdogisms of the same type:

- Floyd in MMA
- MMA fighter vs Floyd in boxing
- Athlete XYZ in MMA
- Famous person in MMA

It doesn't matter. This stuff is pretty simple. A guy that does something professionally for his life >>> a guy that picks it up just now and is an amateur.

That applies to everything. That applied to CM Punk (who had the best trainers but was a nobody in terms of striking/grappling). That applies to "A level athletes" who are nobodies in terms of striking and grappling. That applies to Floyd who is a nobody in grappling (but who could, like CM punk, wastefully try to invest some time and cash to catch up to pros who have invested their life). That applies to an MMA fighter vs Floyd in boxing. It doesn't matter who they have training them. That gap isn't getting closed despite you being famous for something that has fuck all to do with the topic at hand.

Anyone that has trained with a pro in anything (striking or grappling) knows it doesn't matter. No BS variable (athleticism or money or fame) will make someone with 0 training beat a specialist/pro with a lifetime of training. This applies to striking, grappling, cookie baking, gun shooting, whatever.

This is the single most confusing thing to me about Sherdog. "XYZ with this many months of training could do blahblah" based on a BS unrelated variable. It could be years... that sentence is never true about ANYTHING in life when they are competing against a specialist in the top 0.0001% of the population at something who has done it their whole life.

/random rant from a normal person that has trained with a pro

With 4 months of MMA training Matt "Meathead" Mitrione is probably about to starch the goat of MMA.

Also, you are the one assuming the only thing that makes athletes in other sports elite is their athleticism. You are ignoring cognitive abilities, reflexes, adaptability, durability, persistence, etc. There are a lot of physical and mental attributes where world class athletes in other sports would have the advantage over the average MMA fighter.

You don't think Jon Jones would trade bodies with Russell Westbrook if he could?

Also, 2 years full time MMA and every linebacker in the NFL is a favorite over Ryan Bader(#4 LHW in the world).

 

[fatlipjesus]

With 4 months of MMA training Matt "Meathead" Mitrione is probably about to starch the goat of MMA.

Also, you are the one assuming the only thing that makes athletes in other sports elite is their athleticism. You are ignoring cognitive abilities, reflexes, adaptability, durability, persistence, etc. There are a lot of physical and mental attributes where world class athletes in other sports would have the advantage over the average MMA fighter.

You don't think Jon Jones would trade bodies with Russell Westbrook if he could?

Also, 2 years full time MMA and every linebacker in the NFL is a favorite over Ryan Bader(#4 LHW in the world).

"With 4 months of MMA training Matt Mitrione is probably about to start the goat of mma."

Matt Mitrione has been a professional MMA fighter for 7 full years.

Even with 3 years of training and MMA fight experience... he still got knocked out in 2 minutes by fat gatekeeper Roy Nelson.

Is Roy Nelson an A level athlete? LOL

 

[screaminleeman]

Brock almost posted the same combine results as JJ Watts ( and is approx of similar size ) and that was a few week after a motorcycle accident ( not even 100% ) , so he clearly is "A Level " as far as athlecism goes
Also wrestled all his life ..
Didn't prevent him to get his ass handed to him once he fought legit opposition.
So with him should the " A level " myth go .

Oh well, This gut has a memory shorter than the average male sex organ.

How about the truth might really hurt your rectum when I remind you of reality and FUCK your fantasy world IN ITS DUMB A!

Less MMA experience than any professional UFC level MMA fighter also did NOT keep Brock from winning the UFC HW championship with less professional fights than anyone in the history of Zuffa UFC!

Some FUCKTARDS aren't even cognizant enough to recognize the difference between becoming the UFC champion with the LEAST experience in the sport with getting the A handed to them.

Isn't Vitor Belfort YOUNGER than Brock? A 22 year professional MMA legend can't even DREAM of "sniffing" a UFC belt since turning 30. Brock with 1/10th the MMA experience had ZERO challenge WINNING AND DEFENDING a UFC belt!

How is your LEGENDARY Shogun doing since hitting 30?
Big Nog?
Wandy? . . . . .

Tell the truth, you are under 20 years old and have ZERO concept of what begins occuring in males when they hit the big three!

Child you will one day grow up and understand.

A 30 years old man with ZERO combat sport experience that starts MMA in the highest level (The UFC) has absolutely no right to be competitive.

If you are TOO STUPID to understand the AMAZING feat that Shane and Brock performed in the highest level of MMA with ONLY athleticism then you are hopeless. Good Day!

 

[Kristian82]

Heavyweight is the only weight I see it as a possibility as I believe the general skill level is lower than the other divisions due to there being so few men in the world that sort of size.

 

[Squish II]

Punk got into the UFC with around a year's worth of training.

 

[Claude]

Waiter at 19. 19 is better to start than 30, but you're wrong if you think 30 is just too old for NFL players. Totally wrong.

Freak athletes. Have you *ever* followed a sport other than MMA? Athletic abilities translate well. Far from perfectly - which is why I say most would fail to be elite. But they translate well enough to ensure some would be elite. It's a virtual lock.

37, not 30. Yeah that's old.

Athleticism can be a lot of things. No sport has athleticism patented. You claim NFL players are freak athletes, but at what? throwing and catching a ball, running, tackling, etc., just like boxers are freaks at punching people, swimers are freaks at swiming and sprinters are freaks at sprinting.

So football players are only the ultimate freaks at what they do, nothing else. There really is nothing especial about what they do to say they would have a significant advantage over someone who has a martial arts base.

 

[Fyreborn]

37, not 30. Yeah that's old.

Athleticism can be a lot of things. No sport has athleticism patented. You claim NFL players are freak athletes, but at what? throwing and catching a ball, running, tackling, etc., just like boxers are freaks at punching people, swimers are freaks at swiming and sprinters are freaks at sprinting.

So football players are only the ultimate freaks at what they do, nothing else. There really is nothing especial about what they do to say they would have a significant advantage over someone who has a martial arts base.

30 when they start. Don't get confused. That's what you said. 30 is not too late to start. And they'd learn quicker than JDS. 37 isn't that old anyway, plenty of champs have been older than that.

NFL players are freak athletes *period*. I asked if you follow non-MMA sports,
you didn't answer. I already went over this: athleticsm transfers across sports. Not perfectly, but well enough to virtually *guarantee* that if all 30 year old NFL players started full time MMA training, some would turn out at least as good as JDS.

You'd have to be ignorant to disagree with that statement.

 

[Claude]

30 when they start. Don't get confused. That's what you said. 30 is not too late to start. And they'd learn quicker than JDS. 37 isn't that old anyway, plenty of champs have been older than that.

Those champs had a lifetime of MA training.

NFL players are freak athletes *period*. I asked if you follow non-MMA sports,
you didn't answer. I already went over this: athleticsm transfers across sports. Not perfectly, but well enough to virtually *guarantee* that if all 30 year old NFL players started full time MMA training, some would turn out at least as good as JDS.

You'd have to be ignorant to disagree with that statement.

Really?

Are they freak athletes at swiming?
What about reacting to punches? or maybe doing double back flips?

Or maybe every elite athlete is a freak in their respective field...?

 

[Pseudo Sane]

I 100% agree with this. That said many of us do not have this "exact" thought process.

Many of us that question how large Athletes in the mainstream sport would have performed as MMA fighters had they focused on training at the core disciplines as a youngster. I LMAO at most of the NBA in UFC arguments, but I can even see some of their point of views. It is damn difficult to say how competitive that a Lebron James might be today in the UFC if he had focused on Wrestling, Boxing and some martial art involving kicking as a single digit year old kid and stayed with it until adult. It is likely that an athlete of that caliber would have been seriously competitive if he had 20 years of training in these areas!

I say the same thing about NFL players. Stephen Neil beat Brock Lesnar for the NCAA title in 1999. With zero NCAA football experience, he transitioned from an athlete with a proven successful discipline into MMA (Wrestling) and made a career in the NFL.

FFS the Stephen Neil that beat Brock Lesnar would have clearly had a skillset that would allow him some success in the UFC! Same with the GOAT UFC fighter who is BY FAR the least athletic in the family.

I think that you are a nut if Arthur would not run his 10,000 - 0 record against his little brother Jon to 10,001 - 0 if they fought in the Octagon you are CRAZY.

That permanent scar on Jon's forehead is not from anything the ANY top UFC fighter was capable of doing. The was Big Brother Arthur that busted Jon's skull acting up. Jon isn't going to 'suggest" he could beat his NFL brother that was also a decorated Wrestler.

The Youngest "Jones" brother is the most athletic of the three. Without the Wrestling background Chandler doesn't stand a snowflakes chance in hell of beating any of his less athletic brothers.

I will go on record saying that the current NFL players had they focused their athletic efforts on the core disciplines that have had success in MMA, than there would not be a single LHW or HW currently on the UFC roster that would be able to reach the UFC (or even Bellator).

Not an x month argument. X months does NOT make any athlete competitive with current UFC fighters. A life long training in the core disciplines of these athletes makes perfect sense to compare to the current LHW & HW UFC fighters.

Doesn't Arthur outweigh Jon by like 120 lbs?

 

[Fyreborn]

Those champs had a lifetime of MA training.



Really?

Are they freak athletes at swiming?
What about reacting to punches? or maybe doing double back flips?

Or maybe every elite athlete is a freak in their respective field...?

Not every champ has a "lifetime"of MMA training.

You literally know nothing at all about NFL players do you? That's the one sport where overall athleticism matters most. Other sports are more skill dependent than athleticism dependent.

Again, the statement I made about "if all NFL players 30..." was a virtual lock. Are you disagreeing with that statement?

 

[Claude]

Not every champ has a "lifetime"of MMA training.

You literally know nothing at all about NFL players do you? That's the one sport where overall athleticism matters most. Other sports are more skill dependent than athleticism dependent.

Again, the statement I made about "if all NFL players 30..." was a virtual lock. Are you disagreeing with that statement?

Not MMA, but MA = martial arts.

You're simply narrowing down what athleticism is to what football players do. Compared to other athletes, if we talk about endurance, do you think NFL athtletes could be considered freaks? Pretty sure a lot of them would gas in a 5 round sparring sesion.

How is a track and field runner not dependant on athleticism when he has to be fast, explosive, agile, have great reflexes, endurance, etc. to win?

Again, the statement I made about "if all NFL players 30..." was a virtual lock. Are you disagreeing with that statement?

I will say this: If there was one in a million guy who could pull it off, it would be because of the individual aptitudes of that person, not because he was a football player.

That being said, I don't see any of them being a long time top MMA fighter unless they had an MA base.

 

[LiLoMMA]

Brock was given a very easy path to the title and he fought a 220 lbs ancient man.

You mean the champion?

 

[Claude]

You mean the champion?

Precisely.

 

[screaminleeman]

Doesn't Arthur outweigh Jon by like 120 lbs?

Football weight, and the weight that Arthur competed in Wrestling are vastly different. It would indeed be a 1 WC difference in that Arthur could not possibly make 206.

That said, the 320 pounds that he is "wearing" to be better competitive in his sport of the NFL truly has little to do with his fight weight.

Arthur were he to turn full time professional MMA fighter would likely not even be cutting weight to reach the UFC HW limit of 265.

He would be ~ 250 - 255. Yes, he still clearly outweighs Jon considerably even after getting into MMA fight shape, but it is closer to 50 pound advantage that a 120 pound advantage. Many posters have screamed bloody murder that Jon has no right in the UFC LHW division (I am CERTAINLY not one of them), but it is out there that MANY believe that Jon should be competing at HW.

I do not believe that Jon can beat Arthur in a HW UFC fight. Arthur is IMO one of my biggest disappointments that he is NOT a UFC fighter in lieu of his NFL career. I met Art in Ravens training camp. What an outstanding polite gentle giant he was. The kids LOVED him! That said, he walked with a confidence that was almost inspiring.

I know I am WAY overboard, but I strongly feel that if Art had come out of Syracuse and gone into MMA like Jon did after JC, he would be the current DOMINANT UFC HW champion.

Take that with a grain of salt however. I said something slightly similiar about an ex-Raven nose tackle nick named Buddy Lee (who Wrestled Art in Raven training camp with Ray Lewis and Ray Rice providing commentary.

I have to admit, that it was fairly disgusting seeing 700+ pounds of NFL/ NCAA wrestlers going at it!

 

[Fyreborn]

Not MMA, but MA = martial arts.

You're simply narrowing down what athleticism is to what football players do. Compared to other athletes, if we talk about endurance, do you think NFL athtletes could be considered freaks? Pretty sure a lot of them would gas in a 5 round sparring sesion.

How is a track and field runner not dependant on athleticism when he has to be fast, explosive, agile, have great reflexes, endurance, etc. to win?



I will say this: If there was one in a million guy who could pull it off, it would be because of the individual aptitudes of that person, not because he was a football player.

That being said, I don't see any of them being a long time top MMA fighter unless they had an MA base.

Track and field runners are athletic. Who said otherwise? They'd have a vastly better shot than a random person. Hundreds of times greater probably.

But they aren't as cross-sport transferable athletic as typical NFL players. QBs are the least athletic -that is the most skill based position by a lot. But you need solid combine numbers for other positions. Again, most NFL positions depend less on skill than sports like swimming and soccer. NFL fans know this stuff. There's also an unusual amount that would be HWs, and that is a very shallow division since few people are that big. In the NFL, big is the norm.

Out of literally hundreds of possible NFL players, you are saying NONE of them would do it? All I have to say to that is "LOL".

 

[Dionysian]

i thought we were talking about mma where you can punch n kick...

so what youre saying? would jones win olypmic gold if he quit mma n tried wrestling or sub with ease top bjjers in bjj competition the way he does it in mma?

I'm saying being trained in something > not being trained in something in terms of being proficient at that something. You used Jon as the athlete template for why he won the title (ignoring his lifetime background in combat sports of course) and said NBA guys were better athletes therefore would do even better based on their athleticism alone. You similarly implied that Olympians are not athletes of the same level by pointing on Jon beat Olympian DC at wrestling in an MMA fight.

Now that I call you on the non-logic you're doing an even stranger twist... "we're talking about MMA which has kicking/punching" (also something NBA players have 0.00 experience in) therefore that makes NBA guys more suited to it because they wouldn't be "restricted" haha. You DO realize the more variables you introduce where someone has 0.00 experience the MORE stacked it is against the person with 0.00 experience right? Or do basketball players fit into the realm of imaginary Crane-style-martial-artists that their techniques are too deadly and if you lessen the amount of rules they'd dominate?

But to get back to your sidetrack question... don't ask me how Jon (lifelong grappler) would do if he focused on grappling only. Answer the question about how an "A level athlete" would do without a grappling background. How many basketball players would win Olympic gold wrestling with a year of training? If your logic of "they are better athletes than anyone in MMA" and "basketball-centered athleticism overcomes lifetime training and Olympians specifically with regards to wrestling" logics hold true you should feel comfortable in predicting an NBA player can get gold in the next Olympics with a few weeks/months of training wrestling. If he wanted to, of course. I'm guessing you'll say they just don't want to, rather than admit that bouncing a ball doesn't inherently make someone skilled in combat.

just look at this pic

you seriously think this guy

beats this guy

if you give the 2nd guy basic ufc training?

... and that's a wrap. Lol "just look at this pic" being your logic. How can I even hope to explain this? Do I think someone that has trained their whole life and is at the elite level at factor X is better at X then a guy that has zero training and is at the below-amateur level at X? Yeah I'll take a stab at this and predict the elite guy defeats the amateur guy. Like I said... this is all indicative of the gap between people that train and people that have ZERO athletic frame of reference other than watching basketball as kids. Your logic is literally a pic showing that the guy at the below-amateur level is taller therefore wins haha.

Since we're tackling the 7 year old girl logic that taller=better at fighting I can clear some other things up for you while I'm at it.

1. Growing a beard doesn't make someone better at fighting.
2. Getting a tattoo doesn't make someone better at fighting.

We'll take baby steps and stick to those 2 for now. Don't think you're quite ready for the "bouncing a ball doesn't make someone better at fighting" step quite yet. Ten steps from now will be the "NBA/NFL aren't the only sports/athletes on Earth" step that Amercians have an especially hard time with. Step after that would be to understand the connection between athletic levels and Olympic medals. Like I said though... one step at a time.

 

[Dionysian]

I agree, TS. Does being a high-level athlete mean you're more likely to be a "natural", at MMA? Sure. Does it guarantee it? Not at all, and in fact there are counter examples. Genetics is a factor too; just because you're built for football doesn't mean you're built for basketball/hockey/swimming/boxing/MMA/etc. I think that having some experience training with reasonably high-level pros does really help to drive this point home, but of course as soon as you say that on Sheredog somebody with no experience will just deride you.

I should have posted my "guy helping a pro train" story on the first page I think instead of as a reply on the 3rd or whatever page.

I am of course nowhere in the universe of an NFL/NBA athlete but I was not an out of shape guy by any means. Especially when it came to speed/strength. And my TDs (fresh) were shrugged off by him like it was my first day of training, in between him doing it to 9 other guys with no rest.

The skill gap is real guys. Pros are pros for a reason and perspective matters. Athleticism matters of course but that shit isn't closing any amateur/pro gap in the span of months.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, people say this about most sports. I know plenty of people who think that if you put a tennis racket into an NBA player's hands, in six months he'd win the tennis grand slam. Or put an NFL player on skates and he'd be the NHL's highest scorer the next year. Its just that most sports fans aren't insecure about it; tennis fans will just shake their heads and move on, same for hockey fans - they know you can't pick up a skill set that quickly, and that athleticism only gets you so far.

Same for boxing fans actually. At one point Wilt Chamberlain was going to box Muhammed Ali (during Ali's suspension); in the end Wilt decided against it, because as he wrote in his autobiography, he'd be as badly embarrassed in the ring as Ali would be against him on the hard court, and he didn't want to be humiliated. Boxing fans don't argue about whether or Wilt would have had a chance against Ali, they take the whole A-level NFL/NBA athlete thing with several grains of sand.

MMA fans are far more insecure about this.