The repetition effort method for hypertrophy?

[ROcknrollracing]

Nah man we got to the common ground bit if you look above.
We have both accepted that you need to be technically proficient, conditioned enough for the activity and being strong helps. We have gotten a little sidetracked again at the moment, but we are at a crossroads of either doubling down again, or acknowledging we actually believe what the rest of the forum is saying.

Edit: Nevermind...

Ill make sure the is the last post I promise.

You proposed to the guy to train 5/3/1 I said there are better ways to train. You went off on a tangent saying that 5/3/1 wasn't bad I then pointed out why it was and I also said that strength was the most important attribute an athlete can have. You disagreed and here we are at square one.

The end

done

 

[maximus__]

Ill make sure the is the last post I promise.

You proposed to the guy to train 5/3/1 I said there are better ways to train. You went off on a tangent saying that 5/3/1 wasn't bad I then pointed out why it was and I also said that strength was the most important attribute an athlete can have. You disagreed and here we are at square one.

The end

done

Nope. Try again. I made a comment about Froning using 5/3/1 for Crossfit to another poster who mentioned Wendler. You assumed I said use 5/3/1 to TS and I asked why you thought it was a bad program. Like I would ever recommend Potato head to follow a different program, I know he won't listen.



Then we rehashed another thread we already did, with you and I ultimately agreeing (as everyone else keeps pointing out including me) I showed you that again and then you got upset when you acted like a Baby ( this comment has two meanings).

I made fun of you for posting 2 videos that agreed with me in the same thread and we both made idiots of ourselves.

I have time off again in July if you want to book this again early, I think we move it to the OT though. It's kinda killing the forum. I kinda lose track of the actual good discussions in the thread within all the posts and feel bad for the others.

 

[period]

We will have to respectfully disagree that Bruce Lee couldn't fight or that he was overrated as he is the godfather of mixed martial arts. The point was to illustrate that knowing a bunch of techniques was not the way to approach a fight but rather simplicity was king.

He's hardly the Godfather of MMA - not historically, nor in terms of what he did, although a lot of people seem to love him for his movies (and never seem to want to adress the PED allegations made by one of his biographers). If anything I'd say he was a pin-up on the MMA fighter plane. But we can respectfully disagree on that, too

And your last part as I pointed out earlier is how professional athletes are selected.

For instance people talked about how static stretching before a baseball game or lifting was a great way to warm up. It was popular consensus that it was actually the thing to do before a contest and later on we realized that static stretching doesn't do much of anything for most sports and could very well lead to injury and will lead to a lack of performance.

History and training philosophies tend to be dialectic - usually, first someone says "A!", then the next guy goes "B!!", and finally, someone comes along and says "A and B both have their merits, provided that the following conditions are met: ...". That may then become the new "A" and so on.

Of course no training system will make 99% of the population a professional as politics, injuries, money, generally being in the right place at the right time all matter as well but the point is to train optimally to give yourself the best chance at success at whatever level you are at.

Actually, I think that's one of the few blanket statements I am willing to make: 99% of the population will never be top fighters, regardless of what they do. The top fighters by definition will always be the most gifted, most willing and the ones who (whether by chance of intelligence) figure out a way to stand out from the rest that works for them.
I have said it before: the goal of a school is to continously produce as many top guys as possible, and the goal of the individual is to be one of those. It is never in the interest of the school to use "idiotic" methods, because that goes against the goal; if they stick to a method, usually it is because it seems to work for most people. If it doesn't, it will be adjusted soon enough - although that may of course be too late for a givien individual to still reach their full potential.
However, it is imho unwise to disregard the knowledge of schools entirely, especially if they do succeed in producing top athletes. Also, I would like to repeat my earlier point that everything needs to be seen in context, that is how that school generelly trains. If your school emphasized sparring and my school emphasizes drilling, we will each need different strategies in our extra training to allow the method to work. If I used the methods ideal for your approach and you the ones for mine, we will both likely end up with sub-par results, unless by sheer chance we happen to stumble unto something that was previously holding us back.

 

[period]

Man, so much has been going on in this thread while I was out doing my morning roadwork and hit the shower

They train like period is mentioning in the thread. It doesn't make them right though.

It doesn't make them wrong, either It once again shows that they know how to make their system work.
Now, we can of course once again argue what it is that makes the system work - one could argue that the 220 kg deadlift made Makhachev so good; I can argue I doubt that, and knowing how they usually train I think it's a byproduct of the strength built in that system, with a little bit of playing around in the weightroom, therefore a manifestation of strength so to speak (rather than the main way of building it).

 

[maximus__]

Agreed on all points. Ngannou is also the first example I'd give for someone "muscling" their way to the top. When he was working his way to the title I was like how the fuck does this dude keep winning? Guys like Lesnar and Carwin had high level wrestling backgrounds but Ngannou was just Tank Abbott with a spray tan and no beer gut. But yeah, a champ like that is only possible at HW although as you point out, he did a good job fixing his grappling after Miocic 1.

When he outgrappled Gane with no ACL i knew he had plugged that hole sufficiently for the current HW division. He already killed Blaydes 2x and his biggest grappling threat wouldn't get a rematch with him.

Tom wouyld have been a great match up for him, just based on speed. Francis has been wobbled a few times and then just came out on top in those 50/50 situations swinging wildly. Tom was technical enough to get inside, with enough of a striking threat to not just panic shoot.

I genuinely reckon Francis unalives Jones. Boxing has always been his weakness since they took away the eye pokes. He can't untrain that strategy and doesn't have the power to get respect at HW>

 

[period]

The fact that for a smaller weaker person HAS to astronomically have more skill than someone with a vast strength.size differential is why we have weight classes at all. It is the reason Kayla Harrison just water cut 30 pounds in a week to become the champion. That right there should tell you how important strength is and the fact that it doesn't is comical.

"Smaller" is an important point here, because in combat sports, a lot of power is generated by throwing your weight around. Someone who cuts 30 lbs generally does that because they know they will do better at that weight, and because they can handle the cut. But "doing better" is a bit more complex than just "strength": in fact, I may cut because my strength isn't up to the demands at my walkaround weight, for example, or because I know I can't reliably handle the weight of someone who steps into the ring 30 lbs heavier than me because they cut and I didn't. Or I may cut because my style is better suited to a lighter weight class. Of course, if the cut kills me, negatively impacts my strengths to the point I cannot employ them, or I fail to make weight in an important bout, that point is (to use my newly corrected spelling) moot.

 

[maximus__]

Man, so much has been going on in this thread while I was out doing my morning roadwork and hit the shower

It doesn't make them wrong, either It once again shows that they know how to make their system work.
Now, we can of course once again argue what it is that makes the system work - one could argue that the 220 kg deadlift made Makhachev so good; I can argue I doubt that, and knowing how they usually train I think it's a byproduct of the strength built in that system, with a little bit of playing around in the weightroom, therefore a manifestation of strength so to speak (rather than the main way of building it).

Yeah man, their system works though the gaps are showing as they get caught technically with people game planning that style now.

Islam 220kg Deadlift is good, but only because he is a fighter. It's nothing in the strength training realm, let alone Powerlifting in his weight class of up to 200lbs for men. He is below the lightest weightclass record.

 

[period]

Yeah man, their system works though the gaps are showing as they get caught technically with people game planning that style now.

Every system has gaps; trying to be great at everything often enough leads to being good at nothing (that's as far as I agree with the Bruce Lee quote). Systems are designed for the current situation, and if they fail to adapt, they will eventually go out of style. Still, I don't think we've seen the real gaps yet - I think Umar vs Merab was a bit of an oddball, because Umar has less of a grappling background than most guys of that school, and Belal only trained there for a relatively short time. But we'll see

Islam 220kg Deadlift is good, but only because he is a fighter. It's nothing in the strength training realm, let alone Powerlifting in his weight class of up to 200lbs for men. He is below the lightest weightclass record.

I know, I wasn't too far behind that number ten years ago competing at 74 kg; and I know that for me, it was "demonstrating strength" rather than "building strength".

 

[maximus__]

Every system has gaps; trying to be great at everything often enough leads to being good at nothing (that's as far as I agree with the Bruce Lee quote). Systems are designed for the current situation, and if they fail to adapt, they will eventually go out of style. Still, I don't think we've seen the real gaps yet - I think Umar vs Merab was a bit of an oddball, because Umar has less of a grappling background than most guys of that school, and Belal only trained there for a relatively short time. But we'll see

I know, I wasn't too far behind that number ten years ago competing at 74 kg; and I know that for me, it was "demonstrating strength" rather than "building strength".

Nah people are just counter wrestling them and specifically preparing for their style of control.
Khabib was an outlier, the other guys don't have his chin and ability to control with just his legs.

They are better finishers through submissions though. Khabib heavily relied on wearing people down, Islam is a legit sub threat at any point in comnparison.

Usman and Umar are more well rounded, but lacking in defensive wrestling. There is a great video of Dustin hitting a switch on Islam perfectly on the fence and Khabib in the exact same spot, defending it perfectly. I don't count Belal within their system, he just trains there for camps. Notice the newer gen are chasing the back more, including Islam. They are controlling from there but lack the ability to beat the crap out of people like Khabib used to.

Don't get me wrong, it's a respectable number, but it's nothing in the strength realm. He is definitely 1 of the stronger guys in his weightclass though, maybe not at 170lbs.

 

[period]

Nah people are just counter wrestling them and specifically preparing for their style of control.
Khabib was an outlier, the other guys don't have his chin and ability to control with just his legs.

They are better finishers through submissions though. Khabib heavily relied on wearing people down, Islam is a legit sub threat at any point in comnparison.

Usman and Umar are more well rounded, but lacking in defensive wrestling. There is a great video of Dustin hitting a switch on Islam perfectly on the fence and Khabib in the exact same spot, defending it perfectly. I don't count Belal within their system, he just trains there for camps. Notice the newer gen are chasing the back more, including Islam. They are controlling from there but lack the ability to beat the crap out of people like Khabib used to.

Don't get me wrong, it's a respectable number, but it's nothing in the strength realm. He is definitely 1 of the stronger guys in his weightclass though, maybe not at 170lbs.

I think Islam's chin is better than people give him credit for - imho he was knocked down, not out that time. In terms of pure wrestling, Islam may actually be better than Khabib, though not neccesarily in MMA wrestling.
I'm not saying a 220 kg deadlift is outstanding for a man (even a lightweight) in Powerlifting terms, and I have said before I don't think my deadlift did anything for my wrestling (also, I think my pull-up numbers were much better in comparison). But it's more telling for a fighter coming from a school known for not lifting heavy, because that tells you his potential number would be much higher if he trained it specifically for any length of time.

 

[maximus__]

I think Islam's chin is better than people give him credit for - imho he was knocked down, not out that time. In terms of pure wrestling, Islam may actually be better than Khabib, though not neccesarily in MMA wrestling.
I'm not saying a 220 kg deadlift is outstanding for a man (even a lightweight) in Powerlifting terms, and I have said before I don't think my deadlift did anything for my wrestling (also, I think my pull-up numbers were much better in comparison). But it's more telling for a fighter coming from a school known for not lifting heavy, because that tells you his potential number would be much higher if he trained it specifically for any length of time.

He has been dropped quite a bit, he recovers well but I think he gets switched off if he hangs around too much longer. Islam is definitely better in pure wrestling, that takedown on DP was a thing of beauty. He doesn't have the ability to cause much damage from top position, but that darce is excellent and a real weapon in MMA.

I think his lifting is plenty strong enough for MMA. he is hitting that 2-2.5x bodyweight number that makes you strong even as a lifter. To add anymore weight he would need to focus heavily on it and give up other training time.

Khabibs 105kg benchpress on the other hand... he is just lucky you get to add weight because he wasn't really trying. That's how we get the 345x 2 claimed in the video...

 

[ChickenBrother]

When he outgrappled Gane with no ACL i knew he had plugged that hole sufficiently for the current HW division. He already killed Blaydes 2x and his biggest grappling threat wouldn't get a rematch with him.

Tom wouyld have been a great match up for him, just based on speed. Francis has been wobbled a few times and then just came out on top in those 50/50 situations swinging wildly. Tom was technical enough to get inside, with enough of a striking threat to not just panic shoot.

I genuinely reckon Francis unalives Jones. Boxing has always been his weakness since they took away the eye pokes. He can't untrain that strategy and doesn't have the power to get respect at HW>

Francis vs. either Tom or Jones would be very interesting. Personally I think Aspinall is the top HW right now but would love to be proven wrong.

Unless he's degraded significantly since his last fight, I think Jones takes Ngannou but I could see it going either way. Agree Jones' lack of power at HW is a problem but I think he's still too fast and well-rounded to get caught clean like the other guys Francis sent into orbit.

But Francis deserves a ton of credit for making changes and fixing (enough for HW) the holes in his game when he was already in title contention as is. Gane has been elite kickboxer guy with shit ground game for years but either can't or won't change his style.

After Miocic outwrestled him, Ngannou hired a private BJJ coach for his gym in Cameroon and from vids that came out, actually put in the work to improve. It's hard to own what you're not good at and change direction when you're already as strong as a Ford Escort. That takes the kind of intelligence I mentioned in my earlier post. Ngannou easily could have surrounded himself with ass-kissers and kept doing what he was doing.

 

[maximus__]

Francis vs. either Tom or Jones would be very interesting. Personally I think Aspinall is the top HW right now but would love to be proven wrong.

Unless he's degraded significantly since his last fight, I think Jones takes Ngannou but I could see it going either way. Agree Jones' lack of power at HW is a problem but I think he's still too fast and well-rounded to get caught clean like the other guys Francis sent into orbit.

But Francis deserves a ton of credit for making changes and fixing (enough for HW) the holes in his game when he was already in title contention as is. Gane has been elite kickboxer guy with shit ground game for years but either can't or won't change his style.

After Miocic outwrestled him, Ngannou hired a private BJJ coach for his gym in Cameroon and from vids that came out, actually put in the work to improve. It's hard to own what you're not good at and change direction when you're already as strong as a Ford Escort. That takes the kind of intelligence I mentioned in my earlier post. Ngannou easily could have surrounded himself with ass-kissers and kept doing what he was doing.

I didn't realise how long Tom had trained until I listened to him on the Mighty Mouse podcast.

The guy has been around the sport since he was a child. Definitely has the potential to be the best HW and he is super fast. IMO Jones is actively ducking him because he knows he is going to struggle in that fight and it kills him. He has been more vocal and personal about Tom's skills than usually when he gets into twitter wars.

I don't know man, Jones has always been hittable by anyone his size. At HW he doesn't survive all those shots. What he has going for him is that HW is as weak as LHW.

Yeah Francis grew on me when he beat Tyson Fury and got robbed. It was pyurely based off Fury being a lazy bastard and not training, but Francis won that fight after again taking something super seriously.

Well I think this thread officially died with TS new replacement starting another thread...

It's getting too hard to actually turn them into discussions now.

 

[Trabaho]

It doesn't have to prove my point it isn't a point but rather a simple fact. Why do you keep saying that your conditioning is strength training? If I already have the minimum strength barrier to be competitive at a higher level then I can maintain that strength while conditioning my body to perform a given sport without losing or maybe even gaining strength. I don't know if ive ever seen someone guillotine choke someone with their lungs or KO somebody with their heart. If I dont have strength it doesn't matter how good my conditioning is because there is no strength there to condition.

yea sure I believe you

230 - 275 lbs. That is NEVER 345. I am a better bencher than Khabib confirmed. Well he is better p4p at bench. I think it´s 230. 20 20 5 2.5 kg on each side + 20 kg bar = 105 kg. Those might be 20 kg bars. So 105 or 125 kg. Looks like 15 kg plates though.

It should be 230 lbs. Small chance it´s 275. I def think it is 230.