The repetition effort method for hypertrophy?

Or they could have just used a progressive resistance routine to get stronger generally and practiced the sport?

You are getting basically to the point that barbell training is useless for sports. It couldnt be farther from the truth.
They both also did that - Goerner with weights, Sass with isometrics and odd objects.
No, I am not saying barbells are useless for sports at all. I think barbells and dumbbells are among the simplest ways to incorporate general resistance training for most sport, and have the advantage their use can be coached by anyone with barbell experience, rather than someone who is intrivately familiar with each sport. However, I have also been arguing that there are different alternatives, especially if the sport itself includes resistance to a high degree, whether it's your own weight, the weight of an opponent or an odd implement, the muscular force of the opponent or something that mimics that, like a band. All of these have advantages and disadvantages, and need to be incorporated in the total training program to yield optimal results. It's as simple as that.

If you want to take up Basque stone lifting, you could say "I'll get my deadlift to 700 and my squat to 600 first, then it will be a piece of cake". Or you could just start lifting the stones as a youth, like they do. By the time you get to your target numbers, the Basque kids will already be lifting the 220 kg stone for reps, even though their squat and deadlift won't be nearly as good as yours. You could also lift stones and do squats and deadlifts on the side, though your stone lifting technique probably won't get as good if you only lift the stones 2x vs their 4x. Or you could be content with your current 550 lbs deadlift and 450 squat and take up stone lifting full time. On the other hand, if said Basque kids do zero GPP on the side, their careers will likely be cut short by overuse injuries etc.
 
They both also did that - Goerner with weights, Sass with isometrics and odd objects.
No, I am not saying barbells are useless for sports at all. I think barbells and dumbbells are among the simplest ways to incorporate general resistance training for most sport, and have the advantage their use can be coached by anyone with barbell experience, rather than someone who is intrivately familiar with each sport. However, I have also been arguing that there are different alternatives, especially if the sport itself includes resistance to a high degree, whether it's your own weight, the weight of an opponent or an odd implement, the muscular force of the opponent or something that mimics that, like a band. All of these have advantages and disadvantages, and need to be incorporated in the total training program to yield optimal results. It's as simple as that.

If you want to take up Basque stone lifting, you could say "I'll get my deadlift to 700 and my squat to 600 first, then it will be a piece of cake". Or you could just start lifting the stones as a youth, like they do. By the time you get to your target numbers, the Basque kids will already be lifting the 220 kg stone for reps, even though their squat and deadlift won't be nearly as good as yours. You could also lift stones and do squats and deadlifts on the side, though your stone lifting technique probably won't get as good if you only lift the stones 2x vs their 4x. Or you could be content with your current 550 lbs deadlift and 450 squat and take up stone lifting full time. On the other hand, if said Basque kids do zero GPP on the side, their careers will likely be cut short by overuse injuries etc.
There is absolutely zero research that says that training with bands only build more "functional" strength than just doing free weight exercises. Old baseball coaches follow that mantra as well because they don't want to give into their beliefs by saying that training with bands is better for tendons and rotator cuffs. It is a complete myth. The reality is you could easily do the same exercises they do with bands and more efficiently build strength.

In the case of taking a deadlift to 700 to most athletes that wouldnt be worth the time when you could get a better investment by training the same movement patterns but from slightly different angles to better coincide with a open chain sport.

If the guy is already strong enough to deadlift 600 the first time he touches a barbell obviously he is strong enough for almost every sport and doing more sport specific training would be the default mode of training. This case is rare but it does happen and it is more or less how professional athletes are selected.
 
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I always find it hilarious how lifting weights threads always turn into how fighters should lift weights

You never see how thread turns into how volleyball players or triathlon guys should lift weights

5/3/1...

<goldie>

Serious answer...The whole Hybrid training craze sort of changed that. Now you have people doing powerlifting and long distance running and being mediocre at both whilst playing a recreational sport.

Fergus Crawley is probably one of the bigger examples on Youtube of this with hybrid challenges and his body has just completely fell apart over the last couple years. Definitely is a cost once you get past those strength standards mentioned way back in the thread to keep progressing whilst pushing ironmans and extreme endhirance.
 
5/3/1...

<goldie>

Serious answer...The whole Hybrid training craze sort of changed that. Now you have people doing powerlifting and long distance running and being mediocre at both whilst playing a recreational sport.

Fergus Crawley is probably one of the bigger examples on Youtube of this with hybrid challenges and his body has just completely fell apart over the last couple years. Definitely is a cost once you get past those strength standards mentioned way back in the thread to keep progressing whilst pushing ironmans and extreme endhirance.
What you do not understand is that there are better ways to program now than just saying do 5/3/1 which could effectively mean any program you can come up with today since there are about 8 million different variations of the program. Not everyone has to gain weight to get stronger and not everyone needs to be training like a powerlifter to get stronger. There are better ways to program for a would be hybrid athlete.
 
What you do not understand is that there are better ways to program now than just saying do 5/3/1 which could effectively mean any program you can come up with today since there are about 8 million different variations of the program. Not everyone has to gain weight to get stronger and not everyone needs to be training like a powerlifter to get stronger. There are better ways to program for a would be hybrid athlete.
Yes I agree.

I was making fun of you and making a comment on a reasonably high profile Hybrid athlete, who does extreme triathlons and things like 500lb squats/deadlift and 5 min mile times and puts them on Youtube.

He put put out a video recently where he completely broke down post going for a marathon PB to the point he couldn't walk properly. In the same video he hit a 147.5kg Benchpress on a whim as his "hybrid" PB.

His best all time as a Powerlifter was a 160kg benchpress at 100kg +.

I mean that's just a 12 week peaking cycle for you if you felt like it, but he has respectable numbers in both disciplines. It's definitely starting to have a major impact pushing both so hard. Imagine if he still played his sport(Rugby).
 
Yes I agree.

I was making fun of you and making a comment on a reasonably high profile Hybrid athlete, who does extreme triathlons and things like 500lb squats/deadlift and 5 min mile times and puts them on Youtube.

He put put out a video recently where he completely broke down post going for a marathon PB to the point he couldn't walk properly. In the same video he hit a 147.5kg Benchpress on a whim as his "hybrid" PB.

His best all time as a Powerlifter was a 160kg benchpress at 100kg +.

I mean that's just a 12 week peaking cycle for you if you felt like it, but he has respectable numbers in both disciplines. It's definitely starting to have a major impact pushing both so hard. Imagine if he still played his sport(Rugby).
Yea I agree to you. I was making fun of you for thinking that isn't possible. To be actually competitive in both at the same time? No.
 
There is absolutely zero research that says that training with bands only build more "functional" strength than just doing free weight exercises. Old baseball coaches follow that mantra as well because they don't want to give into their beliefs by saying that training with bands is better for tendons and rotator cuffs. It is a complete myth. The reality is you could easily do the same exercises they do with bands and more efficiently build strength.
Well, there is also zero research that training with weights builds more "functional" strength than training with bands... what there is, is the experience of thousands of coaches and athletes. Now you can argue that in your experience, weights are more efficient, and the coaches can argue they have seen fewer tendon problems and rotator cuff injuries in athletes doing the same exercises with bands.
And I argue that you can't even do most of the exercises I do with weights, let alone adjust the resistance in the same way or take the weights, benches and pulley machines along when you're traveling, so the point is mute imho. I also argue that one becomes generally more efficient at movement patterns the more often one repeats them, and that doing those movement patterns can build strength if the resistance is appropriate. So the main question is if the movement patterns can be replicated efficiently and productively with some other implement, or whether doing them with a partner, in water or with a ball and a bat is the only way to do it because anything else has certain negative side-effects (e.g. distorted movement patterns).
 
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Yea I agree to you. I was making fun of you for thinking that isn't possible. To be actually competitive in both at the same time? No.
Emphasis on the AND between that initial sentence. The 5/3/1 comment was making fun of you, the rest was to another poster.


Yeah,I would technically train "hybrid", though we just used to call it strength and conditioning.
I do Strength training, interval work and a Long run most weeks. It's definitely possible.

These hybrid guys always bust themselves chasing a marathon PB. They seem to be fine when they are just finishing the runs, but the second they start trying to get towards a proper runners time, they implode in some way.
 
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Well, there is also zero research that training with weights builds more "functional" strength than training with bands... what there is, is the experience of thousands of coaches and athletes. Now you can argue that in your experience, weights are more efficient, and the coaches can argue they have seen fewer tendon problems and rotator cuff injuries in athletes doing the same exercises with bands.
And I argue that you can't even do most of the exercises I do with weights, let alone adjust the resistance in the same way or take the weights, benches and pulley machines along when you're traveling, so the point is mute imho. I also argue that one becomes generally more efficient at movement patterns the more often one repeats them, and that doing those movement patterns can build strength if the resistance is appropriate. So the main question is if the movement patterns can be replicated efficiently and productively with some other implement, or whether doing them with a partner, in water or with a ball and a bat is the only way to do it because anything else has certain negative side-effects (e.g. distorted movement patterns).
I don't think you or anyone said there was more functional strength built with bands? I didn't get that from what you were saying. I definitely notice I am stronger when I am throwing around sandbags and doing odd object type work. I like loading the normal barbell lifts because it's convenient, but man I could happily just lift my 200lbs+ sandbags, climb ropes and use my kettlebells. My issue is my heaviest kettlebell is only 32kg, I use chains to hang plates of it now for non ballistic lifts.
 
Well, there is also zero research that training with weights builds more "functional" strength than training with bands... what there is, is the experience of thousands of coaches and athletes. Now you can argue that in your experience, weights are more efficient, and the coaches can argue they have seen fewer tendon problems and rotator cuff injuries in athletes doing the same exercises with bands.
And I argue that you can't even do most of the exercises I do with weights, let alone adjust the resistance in the same way or take the weights, benches and pulley machines along when you're traveling, so the point is mute imho. I also argue that one becomes generally more efficient at movement patterns the more often one repeats them, and that doing those movement patterns can build strength if the resistance is appropriate. So the main question is if the movement patterns can be replicated efficiently and productively with some other implement, or whether doing them with a partner, in water or with a ball and a bat is the only way to do it because anything else has certain negative side-effects (e.g. distorted movement patterns).
TERRIBLE POST. UPSETTING.
I'm referring to the use of the word "mute" of course. I believe the appropriate term would be "moot".

Other than that? 10/10, very well said, one of the best posts in this thread. People could argue the minutia until the beat to death horses come home but there are aspects in the field of Strength and Conditioning, especially for any type of combative sport, that are just to difficult to quantify in real life practice. So difficult that trying demonstrates itself to be a very inefficient use of time that could be better spent.

Example to illustrate.
IIRC I outsize you personally by a fair bit, but so what? Potentially/possibly I can outlift you numbers wise by a decent margin in the gym but I bet you anything you could ragdoll me in all kinds of ways in a wide open sparring session. I doubt we are gonna spend more than a few minutes analyzing why one of us is better than the other in those conditions though lol. After about 2 minutes there would be nothing more to gain in that conversation unless we were trying to get better at what the other guy does.

Cheers
 
TERRIBLE POST. UPSETTING.
I'm referring to the use of the word "mute" of course. I believe the appropriate term would be "moot".

Other than that? 10/10, very well said, one of the best posts in this thread. People could argue the minutia until the beat to death horses come home but there are aspects in the field of Strength and Conditioning, especially for any type of combative sport, that are just to difficult to quantify in real life practice. So difficult that trying demonstrates itself to be a very inefficient use of time that could be better spent.

Example to illustrate.
IIRC I outsize you personally by a fair bit, but so what? Potentially/possibly I can outlift you numbers wise by a decent margin in the gym but I bet you anything you could ragdoll me in all kinds of ways in a wide open sparring session. I doubt we are gonna spend more than a few minutes analyzing why one of us is better than the other in those conditions though lol. After about 2 minutes there would be nothing more to gain in that conversation unless we were trying to get better at what the other guy does.

Cheers
Interesting that you say that. I know of a UFC Level gym that have recently brought in more "scientific" strength and conditioning programs based around out of camp testing that mimics other high profile sports. They are testing things like mid thigh pulls, verticals etc and cardiac output testing and going with the theory these guys already know how to fight.

At this stage it hasn't really carried over into athlete performance on an anecdotal level. The big guys in this camp were starting to age out, but the newer guys haven't really had success breaking through en masse.

There is something about the type of athletes that MMA etc attracts. It's similar to the Military.
It's not necessarily the highest performing athletes, but the ones who can handle the training and not break down that come out on top.

I think personally it's hurting them, but it might come out better in the long run.
 
Interesting that you say that. I know of a UFC Level gym that have recently brought in more "scientific" strength and conditioning programs based around out of camp testing that mimics other high profile sports. They are testing things like mid thigh pulls, verticals etc and cardiac output testing and going with the theory these guys already know how to fight.

At this stage it hasn't really carried over into athlete performance on an anecdotal level. The big guys in this camp were starting to age out, but the newer guys haven't really had success breaking through en masse.
Can't remember who it was but a few years ago some UFC guy, Ferguson or Holloway maybe? went hard with that approach for a title fight(?). Obviously others have tried it but I remember that one cause they did one of those Inside UFC pieces on it, can't remember how it turned out though. I think it might work well for some specific situations.

There is something about the type of athletes that MMA etc attracts. It's similar to the Military.
It's not necessarily the highest performing athletes, but the ones who can handle the training and not break down that come out on top.
I had to hide the last sentence under my hand and read it letter by letter like it was some kind of thriller novel, anxiety climbing with each syllable because of fear that you were going to dare come right out and say publicly that there is a m*nt*l side to athletic performance, obvious consequences be damned. I'm half way through this bottle of Wild Turkey now but I still haven't stopped shaking, that was a close one, thanks for holding back.
 
Can't remember who it was but a few years ago some UFC guy, Ferguson or Holloway maybe? went hard with that approach for a title fight(?). Obviously others have tried it but I remember that one cause they did one of those Inside UFC pieces on it, can't remember how it turned out though. I think it might work well for some specific situations.


I had to hide the last sentence under my hand and read it letter by letter like it was some kind of thriller novel, anxiety climbing with each syllable because of fear that you were going to dare come right out and say publicly that there is a m*nt*l side to athletic performance, obvious consequences be damned. I'm half way through this bottle of Wild Turkey now but I still haven't stopped shaking, that was a close one, thanks for holding back.
Bj Penn did it and looked the best he ever did during his title defences.
Ferguson and Max didn't spar for ages. Ferguson basically did most of his career doing random shit in his own space. It worked out well until it didn't... in catastrophic fashion.

My comment was purely about the physical side of things. I wouldn't dare point out that telling yourself that it's purely physical, is a mental positive reinforcement strategy in itself...

Nah this particular team has really started to push the physical testing side of things and move away from as many hard rounds. It's still only 12-24 months into the process and the fighters physically look great, but the carryover isn't there in my opinion yet. It needs the next generation to come through so we can see the results. I think they went to far down the physical side of things and it's costing them.

I personally think they need more band work...
 
Ok I will play along. What percentage would you put on sports being mental? 50%? 35%

I can think about doing an action like an artist would when painting a picture but until I do it it is just imagination not actively putting out my work or imagined performance/painting into action.

If for example im in the middle of squatting for max reps and all of the sudden I hear my phone ring half way through the set then I immediately stop the set then the objective of squatting for max reps was not achieved because I allowed an outside force to control completing the objective.(choosing your sacrifice)

Or lets say If I am in the middle of an athletic contest say im dribbling the ball to the soccer goal and all of the sudden I feel bad for the other team because I am about to score a goal and I have an errant kick the misses the goal then that means you allowed your feelings to get in the way.

Our feelings change every waking second and if they didnt then you would basically be a psychopath.

The objective is to control your emotions during a sporting action not to say that they don't exist.

That is both Chael and my reasoning for saying that.
 
Well, there is also zero research that training with weights builds more "functional" strength than training with bands... what there is, is the experience of thousands of coaches and athletes. Now you can argue that in your experience, weights are more efficient, and the coaches can argue they have seen fewer tendon problems and rotator cuff injuries in athletes doing the same exercises with bands.
And I argue that you can't even do most of the exercises I do with weights, let alone adjust the resistance in the same way or take the weights, benches and pulley machines along when you're traveling, so the point is mute imho. I also argue that one becomes generally more efficient at movement patterns the more often one repeats them, and that doing those movement patterns can build strength if the resistance is appropriate. So the main question is if the movement patterns can be replicated efficiently and productively with some other implement, or whether doing them with a partner, in water or with a ball and a bat is the only way to do it because anything else has certain negative side-effects (e.g. distorted movement patterns).
It is absolutely does. Bands are not incrementally loadable and that is all you need to know.

I can take a pitcher and do the exact same shoulder exercises but incrementally load them at a weight that can be handled and add strength in that movement pattern more efficiently then just picking a band and doing hundreds of reps for the same or better benefit.

Even bodyweight movements IE chins/pushups are more effective when loaded if you had no access to a barbell or free weights.

I find it odd that you have put up respectable numbers in the gym and had it translate to your sport and yet say that bodyweight training is better?

I can 100% confidently say that I would have been a better athlete in high school/college years if I had trained smarter from the get go. I wasn't the highest level in any sport but I was good enough to earn scholarships and play a sport in my adult years all over the country and I am telling you free weights are the best thing for exercise out there to improve your performance.

I trained with free weights just not very effectively as BFS and westside are not optimal programs. I also made the mistake of playing far too many sports as if you look at my letterman jacket there isn't a sport on there that I dont have a patch for. Rather playing every sport I would have been better off focusing on 1 or 2 sports and developing GPP during off periods of the competitive season.
 
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