The repetition effort method for hypertrophy?

ROcknrollracing said:
Yea that’s the entire point. Strength is not as easily built as conditioning being that even just walking is conditioning.
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I'd argue there's not that much difference to be honest... I mean, building SOME strength is as simple as building SOME conditioning - of course, it's always a question about whether we leave out the extreme "zero" cases or not. On the other hand, building OUTSTANDING strength is arguably more simple than building outstanding conditioning, and a lot less painful. Just lift more than everyone else, done. The hard part is being able to achieve a world-class level of technique at the same time to be able to apply that strength (again, max strength work with weights doesn't mix too well with high volume on the mat, at least in my experience), not neglecting conditioning completely and not outgrowing your weight class. Conditioning is a lot more varied under most definitions, and achieving outstanding conditioning requires both GPP, SPP and more mat time than anyone else. If you focus on conditioning over strength, outgrowing the weight class is a much less likely problem to arise, and if you have more mat time than anyone else, likely your technique will also be good (unless you're seriously messing up the matwork, but that's another matter). Building a competitive amount of strength on the side is pretty easy in the experience of both myself and my teammates.
 
This is where you guys get this wrong. If I strength train appropriately it improves conditioning at first in a completely untrained person provided they aren’t doing any other exercise other than walking. How do you know that you can’t compete at a higher weight class anyways without ever trying it? Besides that you don’t have to become a super heavyweight to get strong obviously.

The main thing that you are wrong about is if I don’t have strength there is nothing there to condition whether that be by genetics or working to get strong.

Obviously if I’m training for a 5 round ufc title fight your observations apply.
 
The other funny thing is that if Simone biles etc get their way then every Olympic woman’s sport will be won by men pretending to be women. You know the EXACT reason why.
 
ROcknrollracing said:
This is where you guys get this wrong. If I strength train appropriately it improves conditioning at first in a completely untrained person provided they aren’t doing any other exercise other than walking. How do you know that you can’t compete at a higher weight class anyways without ever trying it? Besides that you don’t have to become a super heavyweight to get strong obviously.

The main thing that you are wrong about is if I don’t have strength there is nothing there to condition whether that be by genetics or working to get strong.

Obviously if I’m training for a 5 round ufc title fight your observations apply.
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And if an untrained person trains conditioning, they will improve strength. In fact, even a strong person probably will, if they have never trained in this way before - please show me the guy who has always trained max strength and can climb an 8 m rope 15 times in a row. In fact, please show me any guy who can do that - I got a contract for them.

I am well aware you can strength train - regardless of the modalities used - without gaining much weight. In fact, that's what I've been doing for most of my career. However, there are certain limits to that. Most weightlifters and especially powerlifters climb the ladder of weightclasses through their career.
As a matter of fact, as I have written before, I have trained with heavyweights and superheavyweights for most of my adult life. And I have repeatedly wrestled in weight classes with a limit of 20 - 50 kg over my walking weight, and in open weight in other combat sports. I have blown out more knees of superheavyweights than most people here probably (to quote Roadhouse: "Take the biggest guy in the world, shatter his knee and he'll drop like a stone."). As I said, strength-wise it wasn't a problem, I found I could not only out-lift, but definitely out-tough and also out.last many heavyweights. However, I also found out the hard way that my frame (especially my knees) couldn't take it in the long run. I am pretty sure I'd have mad much fewer injuries if I had been able to do most of my training with people of my weight - and of course, my style meant that most people developed serious hard-ons for me. It's only fair, after all - I break them, they wanna break me. I was the most hated person in the wrestling hall more than once, it's a small wonder I didn't get lynched by angry spectators. These days, I'm at a forced low weight - I have accumulated so many injuries over my career that if I go over 80 kg, everything starts hurting :D

I am familiar with the point of needing to get strong first, then conditioning on top of that - in fact, the argument is used by the guys over at strongfirst a lot - figures, their boss made it their motto. However, that's not how I learned it in wrestling, and I think it mostly applies to adult beginners. If I get four-year-olds on my mat, I can't have them lift - in fact, I won't have them lift until they have hit puberty. But I can teach them to move, and to keep moving - hence, movement and flexibility first, strength later. And they'll get to pretty impressive strength levels without ever having touched a weight, just by moving and wrestling. Works for monkeys, works for us ;)
 
period said:
And if an untrained person trains conditioning, they will improve strength. In fact, even a strong person probably will, if they have never trained in this way before - please show me the guy who has always trained max strength and can climb an 8 m rope 15 times in a row. In fact, please show me any guy who can do that - I got a contract for them.

I am well aware you can strength train - regardless of the modalities used - without gaining much weight. In fact, that's what I've been doing for most of my career. However, there are certain limits to that. Most weightlifters and especially powerlifters climb the ladder of weightclasses through their career.
As a matter of fact, as I have written before, I have trained with heavyweights and superheavyweights for most of my adult life. And I have repeatedly wrestled in weight classes with a limit of 20 - 50 kg over my walking weight, and in open weight in other combat sports. I have blown out more knees of superheavyweights than most people here probably (to quote Roadhouse: "Take the biggest guy in the world, shatter his knee and he'll drop like a stone."). As I said, strength-wise it wasn't a problem, I found I could not only out-lift, but definitely out-tough and also out.last many heavyweights. However, I also found out the hard way that my frame (especially my knees) couldn't take it in the long run. I am pretty sure I'd have mad much fewer injuries if I had been able to do most of my training with people of my weight - and of course, my style meant that most people developed serious hard-ons for me. It's only fair, after all - I break them, they wanna break me. I was the most hated person in the wrestling hall more than once, it's a small wonder I didn't get lynched by angry spectators. These days, I'm at a forced low weight - I have accumulated so many injuries over my career that if I go over 80 kg, everything starts hurting :D

I am familiar with the point of needing to get strong first, then conditioning on top of that - in fact, the argument is used by the guys over at strongfirst a lot - figures, their boss made it their motto. However, that's not how I learned it in wrestling, and I think it mostly applies to adult beginners. If I get four-year-olds on my mat, I can't have them lift - in fact, I won't have them lift until they have hit puberty. But I can teach them to move, and to keep moving - hence, movement and flexibility first, strength later. And they'll get to pretty impressive strength levels without ever having touched a weight, just by moving and wrestling. Works for monkeys, works for us ;)
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You are just pointing out other things wrong with combat sports. You have to rely on certain training partners of relatively equivalent weight, skill and size to get the best training.

No this is not true at all that you automatically gain strength by only doing conditioning as thousands of endurance athletes that never train with weights could tell you. You lose strength if you do noting but conditioning not to mention the thousands upon thousands of cases of overuse injuries in endurance sports. Even these guys figured out they need to train to prevent injury and furthermore if you think it through carefully conditioning is not sole reason these guys can win triathlons or marathons. Even those the top competitors need to be strong for their specific sport. The reason people get tired in the middle of a race is not the lungs. Think about that.

Not really. It used to be that way because everyone looked up to people like Ed Coan who whether he used PEDs(which he did)or not he relied on weight gain and linear progression to become perhaps in some peoples mind the best of all time. Powerlifters definitely do not just rely on weight gain anymore because we have learned over time there are much better ways to program than just linear progression for 20 years and massive weight gain. To reach your full potential in a strength sport as a natural though would require you to know what your optimal weight class is and stay a few pounds within that weight for your entire lifting "career".

It works that way in combat sports to otherwise we wouldnt have Kayla Harrison having to cut ~30 pounds in two weeks to have a weight and strength advantage. Some organization have tried to clean this up by having newer bodyweight regulations in order to regulate weight cutting. That right there tells you all you need to know about how important strength is.

Furthermore you do not know what your optimal weight class is until you try to compete. Your levers and body may very well be more athletic and more optimal for your sport at a given bodyweight than if you had stayed lighter.
 
ROcknrollracing said:
You are just pointing out other things wrong with combat sports. You have to rely on certain training partners of relatively equivalent weight, skill and size to get the best training.

No this is not true at all that you automatically gain strength by only doing conditioning as thousands of endurance athletes that never train with weights could tell you. You lose strength if you do noting but conditioning not to mention the thousands upon thousands of cases of overuse injuries in endurance sports. Even these guys figured out they need to train to prevent injury and furthermore if you think it through carefully conditioning is not sole reason these guys can win triathlons or marathons. Even those the top competitors need to be strong for their specific sport. The reason people get tired in the middle of a race is not the lungs. Think about that.

Not really. It used to be that way because everyone looked up to people like Ed Coan who whether he used PEDs(which he did)or not he relied on weight gain and linear progression to become perhaps in some peoples mind the best of all time. Powerlifters definitely do not just rely on weight gain anymore because we have learned over time there are much better ways to program than just linear progression for 20 years and massive weight gain. To reach your full potential in a strength sport as a natural though would require you to know what your optimal weight class is and stay a few pounds within that weight for your entire lifting "career".

It works that way in combat sports to otherwise we wouldnt have Kayla Harrison having to cut ~30 pounds in two weeks to have a weight and strength advantage. Some organization have tried to clean this up by having newer bodyweight regulations in order to regulate weight cutting. That right there tells you all you need to know about how important strength is.

Furthermore you do not know what your optimal weight class is until you try to compete. Your levers and body may very well be more athletic and more optimal for your sport at a given bodyweight than if you had stayed lighter.
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It may be wrong, but if you have six to eight guys on the mat of a wrestling team competing at national level, two of which are lightweights, three middleweights and one a superheavy, then you put the biggest middleweight with the heavy. Injury rate this or that, but I'd always rather wrestle than not... and I got stronger and tougher for it, and learned a bunch about heavyweights I wouldn't have otherwise. In my experience, most of the best coaches were either light or middleweights for most of their careers - heavies usually don't know the first thing about coaching lightweights.

I'm not talking about running long distance - done that, even got the T-shirts -, I'm talking about conditioning in combat sports, which may be anything from climbing rope to running hills carrying a partner. But to run hills with a partner, you gotta run hills without a partner first, or you'll be cooked halfway up the first climb (and throw up thinking about the five more you're supposed to do).
The reason people get tired in the middle of the race is relative strength (more specifically: relative strength endurance) and resulting lactic acid build up. That being said, contrary to popular belief, a 1500 m race (less than 4 min if you're any good) is already predominantly an aerobic effort - 68% if I remember the numbers right. So a 5x5 min championship fight is even more dominant on the aerobic system. So you the bigger gas tank someone has, the more he can build on top of it with SPP. And that is doubly true with handling mat training, where the intensity is much lower for the most part. There are reasons the strongest national teams (Russia, Japan, Korea...) are all still doing quite a bit of distance running. Your mileage may vary, but I never got in the same fighting shape without roadwork, and I tried all sorts of things - Airdyne tabatas, rowing, jumping rope for hours, you name it.

Yes, the ideal competition weight is important, in fighting probably even more so than in lifting. However, as I have written before, it's a question of style, as well as other things. A good coach will be able to look at a kid moving and be able to say "this one will be best at..." 95% of the time, they are right (and even if they're not, they still are, because the first rule is "coach is always right", and rule number two "Failing that, automatically rule number 1 applies" ;) Determining ideal walking (off-season) weight is more difficult. For most of my career, I preferred a walking weight of 10 kg over my competition weight - fewer injuries when training with the heavies, and I knew I could cut that much without problems even with weigh-ins an hour before matches. I know that's less than Kayla cuts, and I'm bigger than her, but she has 24 hours to recover. With that luxury, I would probably have been able to make 66 kg. Anyway, the idea is "find your ideal competition weight, then stay within cutting distance of it."
 
period said:
It may be wrong, but if you have six to eight guys on the mat of a wrestling team competing at national level, two of which are lightweights, three middleweights and one a superheavy, then you put the biggest middleweight with the heavy. Injury rate this or that, but I'd always rather wrestle than not... and I got stronger and tougher for it, and learned a bunch about heavyweights I wouldn't have otherwise. In my experience, most of the best coaches were either light or middleweights for most of their careers - heavies usually don't know the first thing about coaching lightweights.

I'm not talking about running long distance - done that, even got the T-shirts -, I'm talking about conditioning in combat sports, which may be anything from climbing rope to running hills carrying a partner. But to run hills with a partner, you gotta run hills without a partner first, or you'll be cooked halfway up the first climb (and throw up thinking about the five more you're supposed to do).
The reason people get tired in the middle of the race is relative strength (more specifically: relative strength endurance) and resulting lactic acid build up. That being said, contrary to popular belief, a 1500 m race (less than 4 min if you're any good) is already predominantly an aerobic effort - 68% if I remember the numbers right. So a 5x5 min championship fight is even more dominant on the aerobic system. So you the bigger gas tank someone has, the more he can build on top of it with SPP. And that is doubly true with handling mat training, where the intensity is much lower for the most part. There are reasons the strongest national teams (Russia, Japan, Korea...) are all still doing quite a bit of distance running. Your mileage may vary, but I never got in the same fighting shape without roadwork, and I tried all sorts of things - Airdyne tabatas, rowing, jumping rope for hours, you name it.
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The thing is though you HAVE to complete 1500 meters to win. You do not HAVE to fight for 5x5 minute rounds as you could theoretically end the fight in 1 second. The smart/best fighters end the fight ASAP to prevent injury to themselves and prevent giving the opponent any chance at winning or being able to think through adverse situations if they were to fight the full 5x5.

You of course need to train the aerobic system AT FIRST because that is what the lactic/alactic energy system feeds off of.

period said:
Yes, the ideal competition weight is important, in fighting probably even more so than in lifting. However, as I have written before, it's a question of style, as well as other things. A good coach will be able to look at a kid moving and be able to say "this one will be best at..." 95% of the time, they are right (and even if they're not, they still are, because the first rule is "coach is always right", and rule number two "Failing that, automatically rule number 1 applies" ;) Determining ideal walking (off-season) weight is more difficult. For most of my career, I preferred a walking weight of 10 kg over my competition weight - fewer injuries when training with the heavies, and I knew I could cut that much without problems even with weigh-ins an hour before matches. I know that's less than Kayla cuts, and I'm bigger than her, but she has 24 hours to recover. With that luxury, I would probably have been able to make 66 kg. Anyway, the idea is "find your ideal competition weight, then stay within cutting distance of it."
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Agree with your last sentence completely especially!
 
ROcknrollracing said:
The thing is though you HAVE to complete 1500 meters to win. You do not HAVE to fight for 5x5 minute rounds as you could theoretically end the fight in 1 second. The smart/best fighters end the fight ASAP to prevent injury to themselves and prevent giving the opponent any chance at winning or being able to think through adverse situations if they were to fight the full 5x5.
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That is true, and we have all gone by that wisdom - win fast early in the tournament if you can, or you'll liekly be toast at the end. However, you can only do that if you out-class the guy, and not just in terms of strength... or you surprise him. At least in wrestling, finishing early in the finals doesn't happen too often, and even then, it's more often than not the conditioning monsters that manage to pull it off - cook the guy on a not-so-slow flame for the first 90 seconds, then tech-fall his ass. See Ramazanov in the 2024 finals, or Sadulaev vs Snyder 2.
 
period said:
That is true, and we have all gone by that wisdom - win fast early in the tournament if you can, or you'll liekly be toast at the end. However, you can only do that if you out-class the guy, and not just in terms of strength... or you surprise him. At least in wrestling, finishing early in the finals doesn't happen too often, and even then, it's more often than not the conditioning monsters that manage to pull it off - cook the guy on a not-so-slow flame for the first 90 seconds, then tech-fall his ass. See Ramazanov in the 2024 finals, or Sadulaev vs Snyder 2.
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Wrestling is slightly different as it is only one aspect of a fight. MMA is the closest thing we are going to get to a no hold barred completely illegal fight and even it has significant rulesets. Bad wrestling could or could not be good enough to win a fight.
 
maximus__ said:
But if strength=technique then that means that technique really is more important than strength.



View attachment 1098617
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Strength must exist for technic to be applied. Having zero strength(sick and bedridden)equates to zero technique. Strength is therefore a technique of its own whereas in accordance to each individual sport a given strength attribute is trained for to optimal performance in that sport.

There is not a more efficient way to build strength than free weights. The only reason it wouldnt be efficient is if you did not have access to them. If you didnt have access to free weights or in the case of bodyweight movemenst with a way to load them(sandbags, weights vest etc)then you have an even bigger problem than gaining strength. If you dont have strength to get out of bed then you can't afford to go where free weights are to best acquire strength in the most efficient way possible. If you would rather spend a decade acquiring said strength by doing nothing but bodyweight movements you would still likely never acquire the amount of strength you could acquire by simple using free weights.
 
ROcknrollracing said:
Strength must exist for technic to be applied. Having zero strength(sick and bedridden)equates to zero technique. Strength is therefore a technique of its own whereas in accordance to each individual sport a given strength attribute is trained for to optimal performance in that sport.

There is not a more efficient way to build strength than free weights. The only reason it wouldnt be efficient is if you did not have access to them. If you didnt have access to free weights or in the case of bodyweight movemenst with a way to load them(sandbags, weights vest etc)then you have an even bigger problem than gaining strength. If you dont have strength to get out of bed then you can't afford to go where free weights are to best acquire strength in the most efficient way possible. If you would rather spend a decade acquiring said strength by doing nothing but bodyweight movements you would still likely never acquire the amount of strength you could acquire by simple using free weights.
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Nobody disagrees that if you are disabled and bed ridden you have a problem doing anything.
Yes it's easier to build Strength with some form of resistance.

The Strawman Argument
 
ROcknrollracing said:
Nobody is also a straw man since I was talking to period not you Maximus.
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I responded to another poster and you tagged me. Yes that person and post was making fun of you because you didn't realise you had argued against your own point again.
 
I'm starting to wonder if he is in this purely for the pursuit of some special post count goal or something.
 
maximus__ said:
I responded to another poster and you tagged me. Yes that person and post was making fun of you because you didn't realise you had argued against your own point again.
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I dont even know what your argument is anymore. If your point saying that technique trumps strength we will just have to go on disagreeing because I don't agree with that. I think that telling a new trainee just go train the sport as a middle aged man without building GPP is a mistake. If you want to disagree with that that is fine but im entitled to my opinion.
 
ROcknrollracing said:
I dont even know what your argument is anymore. If your point saying that technique trumps strength we will just have to go on disagreeing because I don't agree with that. I think that telling a new trainee just go train the sport as a middle aged man without building GPP is a mistake. If you want to disagree with that that is fine but im entitled to my opinion.
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Start at about 9:10 mins into your own Alexander Bromley Video. He summed it up well enough.

beating a dead horse meme - Bing Images
 
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