The Pence Rule in the age of #metoo: Yay or nay?

[Islam Imamate]

So this is a topic I've seen come up a few times in other threads in the wake of the #metoo movement, figured it might make for a decent thread on its own.

For those who don't know, the Pence Rule refers to the fact that the...

the vice president doesn’t dine alone with women or attend events where alcohol is served without his wife by his side.

He didn't invent the rule, it was common in evangelical circles, but it was recently popularized under his name after a 2017 Washington Post profile on his wife, Karen.

Pence was ridiculed for this at the time, for coming off as a bit old fashioned or backwards. But in the wake of #metoo many have have praised the rule while others say its an inappropriate and even detrimental response to the issues the movement is bringing to light. Here are two opinion pieces on the matter. The first is a critique of the idea

The Pence rule arises from a broken view of the sexes: Men are lustful beasts that must be contained, while women are objects of desire that must be hidden away. Offering the Pence rule as a solution to male predation is like saying, “I can’t meet with you one on one, otherwise I might eventually assault you.” If that’s the case, we have far deeper problems around men and power than any personal conduct rule can solve.

The answer is not to ask women to leave the room. It’s to hold all men in the room accountable, and kick out those who long ago lost their right to be there.

and the second a defense of it

I have those rules not because I think that without guardrails I’m going to assault someone, but because I understand human nature and because I respect women. I don’t want any woman to feel like I’m putting her in an uncomfortable or compromising position. This may come as a surprise to critics of the Pence rule, but there are quite a few women who don’t want to dine alone with male bosses. There are quite a few women who believe that dinner (especially with drinks) is unnecessarily intimate and that business can be conducted in the office or with other colleagues present.

It’s getting wearisome to see a public debate that calls out human failings without grappling with human frailty.

And since both referenced Ta-Nahisi Coates' comments I'll include them as well

I’ve been with my spouse for almost 15 years. In those years, I’ve never been with anyone but the mother of my son. But that’s not because I am an especially good and true person. In fact, I am wholly in possession of an unimaginably filthy and mongrel mind. But I am also a dude who believes in guard-rails, as a buddy of mine once put it. I don’t believe in getting “in the moment” and then exercising will-power. I believe in avoiding “the moment.” I believe in being absolutely clear with myself about why I am having a second drink, and why I am not; why I am going to a party, and why I am not. I believe that the battle is lost at Happy Hour, not at the hotel. I am not a “good man.” But I am prepared to be an honorable one.

Personally, I think there's merit to it even if I wouldn't go as far as to say its a solution to the issues of #metoo. Its only a solution insofar as it protects a man from himself and from a false accusation.

But I think its an admirable rule, or guideline if you prefer, if exercised reasonably. Even the author who defends it concedes that a man who abides by it should not then give his male employees the opportunity he denies to women.

I especially agree with it as it relates to alcohol which may not surprise some of you given my temperance tendencies. I think many social problems could be avoided if we as a society had more restraint when it comes to alcohol consumption, especially when it comes to sexual interactions. The Aziz Ansari case comes to mind. Not because it was a heinous rape or sexual assault but precisely because it was relatively innocuous. A man and a woman had a seemingly consensual sexual experience but walked away with very different feelings over the matter and I think the presence of alcohol was partly to blame for that. Sometimes it goes a lot worse than that though.

Anyway, what do you guys think of the Pence rule in the context of the #metoo conversation? Yay or nay?

 

[Liquid Smoke]

It seems like overkill but it's rooted in a real threat. I'm sure plenty of feminists would love to pin a harassment scandal on him.

 

[bushman505]

I havnt dined alone with a woman (other than my wife) since I got married.

I would though, it’s just not been a situation that came up.

I do however attend events where alcohol is served without my wife. All the time.

Trump is awesome.

 

[scoopj]

For a public figure, it’s sensible. For the rest of us, the first rule seems appropriate, but the second a little extreme.

 

[Son of Jamin]

I think it's a wise move in many circles, especially if you are in the spotlight.

What I think is quite funny with many of the white activists within the feminist movement in Sweden, many of them label Pence's view as hatred towards women defends hardliner Muslims that refuses to even shake hands with women (many current cases in Sweden).

It's all about the messenger and not the message.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I think it is a great rule. Males could save themselves a lot of trouble by practicing restraint and taking relationships and sex far more seriously. In the 10 years I have been married, I have not been alone with another woman except for my wife.

 

[S-dot]

I don’t think it’s a bad move, not specifically for the metoo movement, but just in general for married men who have normal hormone levels. I’ve instituted something similar in my own life, more nuanced and less hardline, but along the same lines.

Understanding myself and where I may be tempted to do something that’ll ruin everything I’ve worked for is one of the cornerstones of my thought process. That applies to sex, violence, drugs, alcohol, crime. Anything where emotions/instincts can overwhelm senses. I’m not so worried about being alone with someone and being falsely accused of anything, but I am worried about finding myself in the grips of momentum that’s moving in a direction I wouldn’t go with a clear mind.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It seems like overkill but it's rooted in a real threat. I'm sure plenty of feminists would love to pin a harassment scandal on him.

It seems like its more about avoiding temptation and adultery than a false accusation but I'm sure Pence has both in mind to some extent.

I think it is a great rule. Males could save themselves a lot of trouble by practicing restraint and taking relationships and sex far more seriously. In the 10 years I have been married, I have not been alone with another woman except for my wife.

Not even your mom or someone like that?

 

[luckyshot]

For a public figure, it’s sensible. For the rest of us, the first rule seems appropriate, but the second a little extreme.

The problem is, you could imagine situations where it is either an absurd or extremely unfair guideline.

Condoleezza Rice was W. Bush's Secretary of State, for instance.

Imagine Pence becomes POTUS. Would he:
a. Resolve never to dine alone with the Secretary of State
b. Not appoint a woman to any position that he might conceivably have to meet with privately

Both are problematic.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

It seems like its more about avoiding temptation and adultery than a false accusation but I'm sure Pence has both in mind to some extent.

Not even your mom or someone like that?

I have spent time alone talking with my mom and sister, but I did not bother mentioning it because it is a given and I'm sure I will get a bunch of Shertards making some inappropriate jokes about me being alone with my mother.

 

[snakedafunky]

Yeah, that's because Mike 'want some cock, get the shock' Pence prefers the company of men for dinner.
No one would be surprised if he gets arrested by an undercover officer in a San Fransisco public bathroom.

 

[TheGreatA]

"The Pence rule arises from a broken view of the sexes: Men are lustful beasts that must be contained, while women are objects of desire that must be hidden away."

I do not think that's what it truly arises from. Perhaps in the past, it did. Today, it arises more so from distrust between the two sexes, caused by institutions that are actively driving a division between them, no differently from how the church once did.

If careers of 30-40+ years are ruined, sometimes by false accusations or exaggerations of a much more innocent truth, people are not going to take the chance of being caught in a difficult spot with no credible witnesses (and in such a case, a female is the only credible witness). It was a means of survival in the past, during the days of chivalry and theocratic oppression, and it has become a means of survival in the modern day, during the days of feminism and social engineering.

In the past, you didn't want to be caught "fooling around" with other women, because you may have gotten your ass kicked as the result of it, by a jealous husband or an over-bearing father. Today, an ass-kicking is the least of your worries. Your entire life might be ruined, your credibility destroyed, career ended, losing your wife, kids, everything basically. So the dangers are of men interacting with women, are even more pronounced than what they used to be, during the more conservative times.

The chances of people misunderstanding your intentions are pretty high, because in modern times people seek to misinterpret other people's intentions for profit or political gain. In that sense it's best to never put yourself in a situation where your actions or intentions can be misinterpreted.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

The problem is, you could imagine situations where it is either an absurd or extremely unfair guideline.

Condoleezza Rice was W. Bush's Secretary of State, for instance.

Imagine Pence becomes POTUS. Would he:
a. Resolve never to dine alone with the Secretary of State
b. Not appoint a woman to any position that he might conceivably have to meet with privately

Both are problematic.

Pence said he avoided situations that involved alcohol like dinner parties. He did not say he avoided women in the workplace for professional reasons. I am sure he has had plenty of private meetings and discussions with women at the workplace given the nature of his job.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The problem is, you could imagine situations where it is either an absurd or extremely unfair guideline.

Condoleezza Rice was W. Bush's Secretary of State, for instance.

Imagine Pence becomes POTUS. Would he:
a. Resolve never to dine alone with the Secretary of State
b. Not appoint a woman to any position that he might conceivably have to meet with privately

Both are problematic.

He's actually hired his fair share of women and promoted them so that concern doesn't seem to have played out in Pence's life.

"The Pence rule arises from a broken view of the sexes: Men are lustful beasts that must be contained, while women are objects of desire that must be hidden away."

I do not think that's what it truly arises from. Perhaps in the past, it did. Today, it arises more so from distrust between the two sexes, caused by institutions that are actively driving a division between them, no differently from how the church once did.

If careers of 30-40+ years are ruined, sometimes by false accusations or exaggerations of a much more innocent truth, people are not going to take the chance of being caught in a difficult spot with no credible witnesses (and in such a case, a female is the only credible witness). It was a means of survival in the past, during the days of chivalry and theocratic oppression, and it has become a means of survival in the modern day, during the days of feminism and social engineering.

In the past, you didn't want to be caught "fooling around" with other women, because you may have gotten your ass kicked as the result of it, by a jealous husband or over-bearing father. Today, an ass-kicking is the least of your worries. Your entire life might be ruined, your credibility destroyed, career ended, losing your wife, kids, everything basically. So the dangers are of men interacting with women, are even more pronounced than what they used to be, during the more conservative times.

The chances of people misunderstanding your intentions are pretty high, because in modern times people seek to misinterpret other people's intentions for profit or political gain. In that sense it's best to not put yourself in a situation where your actions or intentions can ever be misinterpreted.

Yeah when guys were mentioning the Pence rule in the context of #metoo many women were objecting that its not the proper solution to the issue. But it seemed to me they were assuming that these men were suggesting it from that perspective when they could've easily been doing so from a self-interested one, out of a desire to personally avoid such issues with less regard to fixing the wider problem.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

I don't think there is anything morally wrong with the Pence Rule.

If he thinks that being alone with a woman will make him, his wife or that woman feel uncomfortable he should avoid the situation.

What I find odd is making it rule and letting the world know about it. What is the point of that? Is it a weird kind of virtue signaling?

 

[Devout Pessimist]

He's actually hired his fair share of women and promoted them so that concern doesn't seem to have played out in Pence's life.

Yeah when guys were mentioning the Pence rule in the context of #metoo many women were objecting that its not the proper solution to the issue. But it seemed to me they were assuming that these men were suggesting it from that perspective when they could've easily been doing so from a self-interested one, out of a desire to personally avoid such issues with less regard to fixing the wider problem.

According to the New York Times in 2000, respectable feminists were seriously discussing "enforced monogamy" as a realistic solution to the problems of single motherhood, fatherless children, male violence and male sexual crimes. In recent years, monogamy has somehow become a war on women and being a slut is empowering.

 

[BudKing8806]

I'm so fucking glad I'm not in the dating scene anymore lol. But I can see where he is coming from. Sometimes, you just have too much to lose to take the risk.

 

[woodguyatl]

So this is a topic I've seen come up a few times in other threads in the wake of the #metoo movement, figured it might make for a decent thread on its own.

For those who don't know, the Pence Rule refers to the fact that the...

He didn't invent the rule, it was common in evangelical circles, but it was recently popularized under his name after a 2017 Washington Post profile on his wife, Karen.

Pence was ridiculed for this at the time, for coming off as a bit old fashioned or backwards. But in the wake of #metoo many have have praised the rule while others say its an inappropriate and even detrimental response to the issues the movement is bringing to light. Here are two opinion pieces on the matter. The first is a critique of the idea


and the second a defense of it


And since both referenced Ta-Nahisi Coates' comments I'll include them as well


Personally, I think there's merit to it even if I wouldn't go as far as to say its a solution to the issues of #metoo. Its only a solution insofar as it protects a man from himself and from a false accusation.

But I think its an admirable rule, or guideline if you prefer, if exercised reasonably. Even the author who defends it concedes that a man who abides by it should not then give his male employees the opportunity he denies to women.

I especially agree with it as it relates to alcohol which may not surprise some of you given my temperance tendencies. I think many social problems could be avoided if we as a society had more restraint when it comes to alcohol consumption, especially when it comes to sexual interactions. The Aziz Ansari case comes to mind. Not because it was a heinous rape or sexual assault but precisely because it was relatively innocuous. A man and a woman had a seemingly consensual sexual experience but walked away with very different feelings over the matter and I think the presence of alcohol was partly to blame for that. Sometimes it goes a lot worse than that though.

Anyway, what do you guys think of the Pence rule in the context of the #metoo conversation? Yay or nay?

I don’t attend meetings with blacks, Jews, or gays alone for fear that they will accuse me of doing something racist, anti-Semitic, or homophobic..........

 

[scoopj]

The problem is, you could imagine situations where it is either an absurd or extremely unfair guideline.

Condoleezza Rice was W. Bush's Secretary of State, for instance.

Imagine Pence becomes POTUS. Would he:
a. Resolve never to dine alone with the Secretary of State
b. Not appoint a woman to any position that he might conceivably have to meet with privately

Both are problematic.

Agree. Dinners with other public figures where the relationship is known would be an obvious exception. The gray line would be the assistant to the assistant vice deputy Secretary of State.

Where the meeting takes place is also relevant.

 

[bushman505]

I think it is a great rule. Males could save themselves a lot of trouble by practicing restraint and taking relationships and sex far more seriously. In the 10 years I have been married, I have not been alone with another woman except for my wife.

Has your wife been “alone” with other men though??? You probably don’t want to know the answer.