The Official "How to adapt Judo to no gi" Thread

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Matt Thornton, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. Matt Thornton

    Matt Thornton Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    I know there have been some threads about Judo in the past, specifically about how to modify some of the throws. But I thought it would be cool to have a thread where people post what they've found works for them. Until Gokor and Gene LeBell show us some more of that stuff they're showing over at Hayastan (besides the Karo DVD), there are still some things to figure out.

    I've never done Judo before, but after wrestling season, I'm definitely hoping to cross train in it. I don't plan on walking in and asking them to just show me stuff with no gi; I am going to learn it with gi. But as I go along I'd like to try to figure out how to adapt some of it (I know though you need to be a really good Judoka to do this).

    Alright, so I really know nothing. I won't pretend that I do. But I'll post the small amount that I've seen. Correct me if I'm wrong, and please add what you've done or seen.

    THE JUDO TIE UP
    This one seems tough. In wrestling, I see guys tie up with either over/under hooks, or a collar tie. But in Judo, I see guys stand straight up, and grip each other's sleeves. This is tough to adapt for no gi (sweat and no sleeves), and even tougher for MMA (sweat and punches). But the other night, a guy at my gym who did Judo for a while was doing some Judo techniques that are used off of a Judo tie-up. I immediately asked him how he was doing it. He showed me, and I think I've seen this in wrestling, too.

    Overhook his arms. But, to prevent him from bodylocking you, bring your hands together, make fists, and bring them under his arms and post them on his chest. This traps his arms, and your fists are preventing him from getting in close to body lock you. For no gi, this is great. You can try to work for moves like Ashigaru, Kosote Gake... I haven't tried it, but I've seen it done, and it just might allow you to work some of those awesome Judo foot sweeps.

    O GOSHI
    This one has been seen and done. In wrestling it's known as the hip toss or hip throw. Instead of gripping his sleeve, grip his tricep. Instead of grabbing his belt, wrap your arm around his waist, and if needed, pull up on the underhooking side to guide him.

    SEOI NAGE
    This is one of my favorite Judo techniques. It's really tough to do when he's sweaty, but I have done it at wrestling practice before. If you're lucky enough, it does work.

    When it's too hard, though, there's an easy way to adapt the Seoi Nage for no gi and MMA. Karo does it all the time, and we learn it in wrestling. When you step in, do it FAST, and quickly drop to your knees. You're in effect, doing a drop seoi nage. With enough practice, this move works really well, and it takes him by surprise. Karo hits this one really nicely.

    OUCHI GARI
    I like this move. Basic, effective, looks cool. Excellent move to use in a throwing combo.

    Again, this is what I've seen. Please don't think I'm preaching. I'm just trying to state what I've read or seen.

    Instead of the gi grip, work for double underhooks. If possible, try to immediately move yourself once he hits the ground, because this move will place you in his guard, and you won't be postured up.

    With some of the other "reaping" moves (moves that end in "Gari"), you can substitute the gi grip with over hooks and under hooks.


    For a lot of you Judoka out there who are into MMA in some way, you're probably saying "Yeah, no kidding." I dont know if I even helped anyone, some of this stuff is pretty obvious to Judoka who know what they're doing. But I wanted to kick off the thread with something, and who knows, maybe it contributed in some way.
     
  2. stephensharp

    stephensharp Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,516
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I like the over/under or even double over hooks. I hit a makikomi and uchimata last night just off thos holds.
     
  3. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,067
    Likes Received:
    0
    Karo has an instructional that shows some cool no-gi Judo.
     
  4. Matt Thornton

    Matt Thornton Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Yup. I did mention that. But I definitely want to check that out. A guy at my gym is going to bring it in.

    Although, I'm hoping Karo does a pretty good job instructing. I've read interviews, and he says he can't explain how he makes Judo work for him, he just "feels it." I'm hoping to get more advice than that.

    Have you seen the DVD's? If so, anything you could add to the thread? I'd really appreciate it.

    Can't wait to cross train in Judo and authentic Thai boxing :p coolest combination IMO.
     
  5. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    4,133
    Likes Received:
    6
    Okay, i might not be great with wrestling terms, but here are some things i've used for doing judo throws no gi.

    Osoto Gari - Single neck tie and grab the elbow/overhook

    Tai Otoshi I - Overhook and grab the elbow, drop knee style

    Tai Otoshi II - Underhookand pulling with arm gripped at wrist across body, almost an ashi guruma

    Harai- goshi- Double overhooks

    Harai goshi II - One overhook one underhook

    Kosoto Gari - Underhook and pushing head away with other hand.

    Uchi Mata- One overhook one underhook

    Sumi Gaeshi - Arm drag to two on one to wrist grab and arm over bottom of back

    Ouchi gari - Pull down the one of their wrists with both arms, They'll go up back to regain posture leaving a foot foward that you reap while trying to get an underhook on the side you're reaping the leg

    Hiza Guruma - Overhook on side you hit with foot, underhook on other side , sacrfice variation

    more later
     
  6. blanko

    blanko Guest

    the thing is... None other than Kayro has used Judo THROWS with any kind of consistency in MMA...
     
  7. pitviper259

    pitviper259 Guest

    if you wanna use judo in mma...... train in greco roman wrestling :) there they teach you how to throw your opponent without the use of the gi
     
  8. Matt Thornton

    Matt Thornton Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Right. But I'd like to believe that can change. IMO Judo is a great martial art, and if it was possible to adapt BJJ to MMA, maybe there are more ways to adopt Judo to MMA.

    Idk. I could just be talking out of my ass. But to me it seems like, Judo might be applicable in MMA where it's not in wrestling or pure grappling. Guys have a more upright stance in MMA, like in Judo. So maybe that makes more opportunites for Judo? Idk. Either way, I think it's a good idea to see if anyone has been coming up with ways to bring Judo into MMA and grappling.
     
  9. Matt Thornton

    Matt Thornton Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,890
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Definitely. Did you do any Greco? Until I get to college, I have to learn Greco through instructionals or in free time with my coach.

    So I am looking into Greco Roman, too. But there are no attacks below the waist in Greco Roman. So that eliminates all of the reaping moves and the foot sweeps. A lot of Judo is made up of those, too. And from the Judo that I've seen, advanced Judoka use combinations of techniques; maybe, go for an O Goshi, but halfway through, hook your leg and switch to an Ouchi Gari. So some of those lower body attacks may be necessary to use more advanced Judo.

    Idk. I've heard guys say that Judo without a gi just becomes like Greco Roman. But when I see Karo fight (I hate to continue using him as an example; he wants to be known as an MMA fighter, not "The Judo guy"), it still looks like Judo to me.

    I'm really interested in this because Judo is such an aesthetically pleasing martial art, and it actually works. I know for MMA I need to be focused on what works, but, there's nothing wrong with trying to please onlookers, right? Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't it seem like the guys who try to have exciting fights maintain a good fanbase even when they're losing? Look at all the publicity Karo gets for using those throws. And Rampage for his slams.

    Plus, you guys have to admit. Throwing people is just fun as hell :icon_twis
     
  10. blanko

    blanko Guest

    yea it's wierd how karyo can juse judo more effectively than say greater judokas sush as yoshida
     
  11. knoxpk

    knoxpk Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 25, 2003
    Messages:
    6,853
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    tampa,fl
    I guess this is slightly on topic. When my younger brother wrestled in high school we used to go to the summer wrestling tourneys to get his skils sharp for the season.
    There was one kid (103lber) from another school who moved from Cuba and was part of the junior olympic team in Judo.
    This kid did very well wrestling and his senior year actually went unbeaten and won the state championship. I watched a few of his matches and at 1st I thought he was just doing greco but there was differences b/c of his ability to also involve his legs in the throws as well as the proficiency with sweeps.

    So i guess he was adapting Judo to no gi even back then.
     
  12. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    14,174
    Likes Received:
    4
    Nak has knocked off some nice uchimatas with double overhooks.
     
  13. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Down Under
    Have a look at
    Karo Parisyan Judo For Mixed Martial Arts
    http://www.groundfighter.com/details/prodid/199.html


     
  14. krellik

    krellik Gimli son of Cisco

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    4,596
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Sweden (Kalmar)
    And to add to that. He does an increadible job in that series. Extremely indepth and in to details. An solid buy! Good submissions to.
     
  15. Shadowdean

    Shadowdean Fear the Menanite!!!

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    14
    Karo has not faught the same calibur of people as Yoshida.
     
  16. blanko

    blanko Guest

    eh, nak... he has his extreme rare moments when he actually pulls of moves that resemble judo.. but kayro on the other hand is amazing to watch.
     
  17. pitviper259

    pitviper259 Guest

    Yea bro where i grew up when i was like 10 years old they had a wrestling program at the local boys and girls club, and there was 2 teachers, one was freestyle coach and the other was greco......... needless to say i agree with your statement of throwing people gets more fans. Personally never did judo but i did do greco for about 4 years before i got to high school and even through high school and many, but not all, judokas that i have rolled with all enjoy the matches because its tough for them to throw me without the gi, but its really hard for me to budge them as well. I say either way whatever skill you choose train and always think of little ways that you can transition into mma if you had too
     
  18. Sauron

    Sauron Red Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2001
    Messages:
    8,399
    Likes Received:
    370
    Location:
    downstairs
    nak pulls off throws all the time

    however karo's judo in mma is just out of this world. He should go to Japan and teach the gokor system to yoshida dojo.
     
  19. pitviper259

    pitviper259 Guest

    true that bro karo is very good with his judo
     
  20. wallsac

    wallsac Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    0
    You guys should check out Dave Camarillo...He is a black belt Judo, balack belt under Ralph Gracie BJJ and trains some of the best MMA guys...He does an awesome job of making a hybrid out of Judo- wrestling- BJJ. dcacademy.tv is his webite. He trains out of AKA in San Jose CA if you get a chance to stop in...
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.