The MMA Wrestling of Jon and DC. The FACTS Exposed.

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by barney von pelt, Dec 31, 2014.

  1. barney von pelt

    barney von pelt White Belt

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    In various interviews Jon has dismissed DC's dominance over Hendo as nothing but "beating a 50-60 year old man".

    In another interview Jon talked about Cormier being older than his Olympic glory days from 2004 and 2008, implying that he's no longer as good as before.

    Jon has basically been trying to talk himself into "believing" that his wrestling is just as good as Cormier's, which leads me to believe that he fears DC's wrestling more than he lets on.

    It also leads me to believe that Greg Jackson is blowing smoke up his ass to bolster his confidence, much like he did to Sarah Kaufman before she got out-clinched and steamrolled by Rousey.

    But let's look at FACTS.

    Let's examine some common opponents for a frame of reference. This isn't MMAmath, it's just a common frame of reference to judge wrestling skills.

    FACT #1) Jon fought Rashad and beat him on the feet, but he really couldn't take Rashad down or manhandle him wrestling wise. Rashad also couldn't take Jon down or manhandle him wrestling wise. It was Jon picking Rashad apart on the feet. It was a good showing for Jon but his wrestling was not leaps and bounds above Rashad's wrestling. He probably has slightly better wrestling than Rashad, but not by much.

    FACT #2) Jon fought Chael and outwrestled Chael, he TKO'd him in 4:33 of round #1. Impressive, right? But Rashad also fought Chael just 5 months after Jon did, and what happened? Rashad outwrestled Chael and TKO'd him even quicker than Jon did. LOL.

    Therefore "outwrestling Chael" is something they both did. They both had similar success against the same opponent, beating him in round #1 in similar fashion.

    Therefore the wrestling skills of both Jon and Rashad are at a very similar level, as they both showed similar wrestling against Chael and they both showed similar wrestling against each other [neither one dominated the other wrestling wise].

    Let's also not forget that Demian Maia outwrestled Chael and submitted him even more impressively than Rashad or Jon did.

    Therefore using Chael as a symbol of "world class wrestling" is foolish because he was never at that level. Chael's best achievement was 8th place during the 1998 NCAA tournament, barely making All American during that single year [and never reaching that level again]. He never made an Olympic team. He was never a top wrestler in the world and was never 'ranked' in world competition. Cormier got a bronze medal at the world championships and was ranked #2 in the world just before the 2008 Olympics.

    How does DC stack up against common opponents?

    FACT #3) Rashad fought Hendo and couldn't outwrestle him, going only 1 for 10 in takedown attempts. Hendo is the same "OLD MAN" that Jon claims no longer has any wrestling ability.

    So even though Jon claims Hendo is too old to wrestle, Rashad still couldn't take Hendo down and barely won a split decision. But Rashad is the same person that Jon couldn't take down or manhandle wrestling wise, LOL.

    FACT #4) DC fought Hendo just 11 months after Rashad did and RAGDOLLED him unlike anybody had ever done before in Hendo's entire life.

    So it begs the question... Since DC has proven that his wrestling skills [vs Hendo] are light years beyond Rashad's wrestling skills, how can Jon claim he's not impressed? Because let's not forget, Jon himself couldn't outwrestle or manhandle Rashad and was forced to beat him on the feet.

    Other FACTS:

    Josh Barnett is an elite MMA wrestler who's much bigger than DC and is known for manhandling opponents, and nobody has ever ragdolled Josh in his life the way that DC did. Travis Browne didn't outwrestle Josh or manhandle him, he elbowed him. DC manhandled him.

    Against Mir, DC chose to wall-n-stall as a safe gameplan since taking down a BJJ ace isn't the best plan. It was a good plan. He didn't need to take down Mir to win.

    Against Nelson DC mixed in boxing with a few TD's to win on points, using a safe gameplan which worked.

    What about Jon?

    Jon went 1 for 10 in takedowns against Gus [a striker]. Even when he got Gus down, he still couldn't hold him down for more than 10 seconds. So for those of you who say Jon's top game is good enough to hold DC down, I'm laughing my butt off.

    Not only that, but Jon spent LOTS of effort trying to take Gus down on some attempts. He spent TONS of effort trying to muscle Gus down from the clinch but still couldn't do it. This means his technique is not elite. He won't be throwing DC from the clinch if he can't throw Gus.

    DC has never been shut down like that, wrestling wise.

    Can anybody here name a SINGLE opponent who stifled DC's wrestling like Gus stifled Jon? 1 for fucken 10?

    Even if Jon didn't practice his wrestling very much, no elite wrestler should be shut down like that. It shows Jon's wrestling is not at a world class level and you can't become world class in a 2 month camp.

    Against Glover, Jon was barely able to take him down a couple times and could not hold him down and do GnP. And Glover's wrestling isn't even in the same universe as DC's. So it's funny when people say Jon will GnP Cormier. Total dreaming.

    The facts are right there for anybody to see.

    Jon is in the fight of his life. The people who think he's going to use kicks to keep DC at bay are as ignorant as those who thought Sarah Kaufman could use her superior striking to keep Rousey at bay.

    You can "theorize" all you want but when a bullrusher with Olympic level clinching wants to clinch, you can't stop it.

    Angles, reach, knee kicks, blah blah blah. It sounds great until DC or Rousey wants to bullrush and clinch. Olympic level bullrushers can clinch at will.

    If anybody thinks Jon will just stand at clinch range and throw elbows like he did with Glover then you have no brains -- since clinch range means that DC can take him down if Jon's not being 100% defensive. Just wait until Saturday.

    DC will grind Jon for the entire fight. It's Cain vs JDS all over again.
     
  2. snakeybizz

    snakeybizz Purple Belt

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  3. frederick

    frederick Red Belt

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    It's still funny to think that if Chael had lasted the first round, he'd have won the fight.

    EDIT: Don't mind the kids, TS. Solid thread.
     
  4. 7437

    7437 Gold Belt

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    You spent a little time writing this for it to come out like such shit.
     
  5. LatFlare

    LatFlare EADC

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    Mmath!
     
  6. UJustGotChaeld

    UJustGotChaeld Steel Belt

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    There is some MMAth there, but still somewhat interesting.
     
  7. PowermmA

    PowermmA Purple Belt

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    This is not a wrestling match it is an mma fight. I hope cormier wins but i doubt it will be one sided as you predict.
     
  8. Swoliosis

    Swoliosis Red Belt

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    Its actually a decent read if you aren't retarded
     
  9. Combat Wombatt

    Combat Wombatt Brown Belt

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    I think Jones and DC will clinch a bit but in the end Jones will keep DC on the outside and win by UD.
     
  10. vkram

    vkram Brown Belt

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    Shame this isn't wrestling.
     
  11. lhx58

    lhx58 Purple Belt

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    Some solid points there but. MMA match never works like that.

    This is not wrestling its MMA, and usually circumstances and timing and strategy has lots of do end results. Jon Probs are not Cormier level but he is elite level in mma.

    MMA math dont work. In that point we could say that Anderson Silva is better, BJJ artist than Jake Shields and better GnP artist / wrestler than Cormier. Anderson beat Hendo in ground, took his back and choked him out.

    But we all know that Shield is better in BJJ and Cormier is better Wrestler than Anderson
     
  12. ThePewp

    ThePewp Green Belt

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    TS: Solid analysis. Ignore the shertards with their monthly case of Menstrual Herpes.

    I think you did fail a few points:

    1. Jones fought vicious anti-wrestlers such as Machida and found other ways to win.

    2. Jones has had to adapt to more situations mid-fight than DC.

    3. Cormier hasn't fought the same murderer's row as Jones. It doesn't compare!

    4. Jones cannot and will not beat DC the way he did Rashad, but that is the best outcome Jones can get from this one.

    Too bad we never got Rashad vs DC, that would have been a fun fight to see. I think DC would take it, but Shad would make him adapt a few times. I hope DC wins because unlike Jones, DC is a real man, and a man's man.

    Jones is a hero to prepubescent teenagers who laugh at potty jokes. "Hey Beavis, he said Meat..."

    Jones had to adapt more in the Gus fight (just to survive) than DC has had to adapt to any fight in his entire career. I think Jones can take this by fighting smart and forcing DC to constantly adapt. If you make someone constantly adapt, you might open up a weakness somewhere. If DC is forced to adapt too much, he might get into trouble.

    Will be a helluva fight. It has potential to end by TKO at any time (including the first).

    A few more pointers...

    1. Jones has never KO'd an ironchin like Bigfoot Silva which MUST count for something. Bigroid Silva, the guy that went to a "Draw" (which should be expunged to a loss) vs Mark Hunt.

    2. DC has fought "guys like Jones" (heavyweights with big reach and height) his whole MMA career.

    3. I wonder how Jones could do at HW. I am certain that DC could KO the reem, ben rothwell, mark hunt and could bring a good war to JDS.
    I cannot say the same about Jones.
     
  13. Got GOAT

    Got GOAT Banned Banned

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    TS, Jon only got 1 out of 11 actually. That's according to FightMetric. However, I believe he tried 12 or 13 and they didn't count some of the attempts (as usual). So that actually makes it worse.

    [​IMG]

    http://blog.fightmetric.com/2013/09/jones-vs-gustafsson-official-ufc.html

    As for Chael, he's more accomplished than just placing 8th at the NCAA tourney at the Divison I level.

     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  14. fight4ippon

    fight4ippon Brown Belt

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    this
     
  15. benibloom

    benibloom Blue Belt

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    Another fact: Jake shields (a welterweight) ragdolled Hendo ("lol") wrestling wise. So Shields can take down Cormier easily based on your stupid logic.
    And did you consider that maybe Jon Jones didn't train his wrestling as much for the Gustafsson fight?
     
  16. CombatCyborg

    CombatCyborg Black Belt

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    Jon only has advantages in two areas:

    -kicking

    -elbows

    ...because of his reach. If he gets on top of DC, that is his best, maybe only chance at finishing him. Either that or he successfully keeps him at range. If he can't do either of those things, he's getting manhandled.
     
  17. Uncommon Valor

    Uncommon Valor Super Fly

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  18. xupacabra

    xupacabra Brown Belt

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    Closer the fight, more I think reading Sherdog after the fight will be fun like it never was before..

    Ok.. Good that you believe in your boy. Better fasten your seat belt firmly ;D
     
  19. 7437

    7437 Gold Belt

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    Mmath. conjecture about how credentials are the most important thing. There. Condensed version of the OP.

    Its just the same as the 50 other DC WILL REK JONES!!! Threads we got yesterday. And we will get today.
     
  20. Robespierre

    Robespierre Purple Belt

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    perfectly summarized
     

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