The Liver Shot... vs the Spleen

[deadlyshaolin]

So I got to thinking about the much-touted liver shot, that decorated target in striking arts -- or at least Bas Rutten would have you think so. Sure, getting hit in the liver is debilitating -- I'm not arguing against that. I'm a big believer in body blows and their effectiveness.

However, my point is that body blows to the left side of the body -- not the liver, but the spleen -- are just as damaging, if not more. The spleen is a more delicate organ than the liver is. In traumatic injury, the spleen is more likely to rupture than the liver will -- one of the most common causes of hemorrhagic death after a car accident is a ruptured spleen.

Basically, my point is that A) body blows are great, and B) the liver shot, while effective, is no more effective than a "spleen shot" (TM).

 

[scorcho]

Bas loves the shot to the "Melt" (spleen in Dutch) as well and talks about it as much as the liver shot on his DVDs. I agree with you, the spleen is a good target.

 

[deadlyshaolin]

This thread is mainly applicable to southpaws, since it means that their lead hook to the body is just as effective as that of an orthodox fighter -- and that they don't have to reach over with a (slightly) more cumbersome rear hook to the body just to hit the liver.

 

[Brando]

If you're not on the inside, one of the most common and effective ways for an orthodox fighter to land this punch is to slip your opponent's jab to the outside and digging an uppercut to their body. You have to be comfortable with the slip to do this, because it relies entirely on you moving forward as you slip to create the angle, not just moving your head around, as you would have no angle and would be sitting there waiting for the right hand that your opponent is probably firing behind that jab.

Another great way to land this punch is to throw a right hand to the body, not a straight punch, but with a bit of a loop (though not quite that of a hook). The looping right hand to the body is often used to draw the opponent's elbows outward to catch the punch against guys with the straight, tight "European" style. A looping right hand to the head will often land against these fighters, and one to the body will draw their left hand downwards as they reach to parry the punch. Most guys don't expect right hands to the body, and they are risky if you're not bending properly at the knees, but if you throw it sporadically, you'll tag that "spleen shot" sooner or later

Cool thread man

 

[Zankou]

Really not as effective as the liver shot, but still good. Problem is, you don't actually rupture the spleen or the liver by punching with boxing gloves -- it's a question of impact force and the compression effects thereof. The liver compresses far more easily than the spleen or other organs (like the kidneys) because it's so damn big, and has nowhere to go.

To hit the left side of the body, I love the straight right -- jab high to set it up, bend your legs deep and crank the right straight in.

 

[MikeMartial]

Big assed thread on the liver shot (and possible pathophysiology) located here.

 

[deadlyshaolin]

^^ great thread, and I appreciate your contribution to it, Mike.

Question remains: do spleen shots effect as much damage as liver shots?

I'm not entirely sold on the liver shot's damage being vagally-mediated. If that were the case, wouldn't strikes right up the middle hurt even worse? Why go for one side over the other?

 

[MikeMartial]

^^ great thread, and I appreciate your contribution to it, Mike.

Question remains: do spleen shots effect as much damage as liver shots?

I'm not entirely sold on the liver shot's damage being vagally-mediated. If that were the case, wouldn't strikes right up the middle hurt even worse? Why go for one side over the other?

While I'm not totally convinced on the vagal stimulation from a liver shot, the anatomy of the vagal nerve in relation to the liver makes it possible. A branch from this plexus runs right behind the left segment, so force transmitted from a blow COULD cause stimulation.

I'm actually favoring the idea of diaphramatic spasm. The physiology may be similar to a "Charlie Horse", or solid leg kick. From talking with guys that have dropped from body shots, the most common symptom seems to be "I couldn't breath".

When I've actually had patients that have had a vasovagal reaction, they are pale, diaphoretic, and their blood pressure is in the toilet---but not complaining of shortness of breath.

In my experience as working as a ringside medic for MT/MMA matches, I've never seen a guy actually have any permanent organ damage---symptoms seem limited to nausea/dizzyness/shortness of breath, and clear up within 30 minutes, max. That's not saying it doesn't happen, though.

Why the right side versus left? More guys drop from right sided shots versus left, that's for sure. That lends itselft to the Vagal Theory. Plus, most guys are orthodox fighters, so you'd think there'd be more left sided body shots. The diaphragm is fairly evely distributed across the thorax, and isn't more protected on one side versus the other. While the spleen is considered a solid organ, it's "less dense", if you will, than the liver. Perhaps it can absorb more force because of this? I'm just throwing out ideas here.

All I know for sure is that these days I'm practicing my body shots a LOT more :icon_chee

 

[Sax MMA]

Great in depth look at this strike. very nice.

 

[phenomfan1529]

cool thread

i love body shots in general

 

[SPAZ650]

body shot!!!!

love liver hits.... hate being hit in the liver... two days ago I was kicked in the liver by my friend and it paralyzed for a few second... it felt like i was hit in the nuts

 

[Michael Wanaka]

Right hook to the body is a great shot. I've probably put more people to a knee with that punch than a left hook to the body.

 

[MikeMartial]

Right hook to the body is a great shot. I've probably put more people to a knee with that punch than a left hook to the body.

Interesting---I love hearing anecdotal reports like this. I'm so damn interested in this right now, I'd probably drop a guy with a right hook, and then lean over top of him as he lays in a crumpled heap and ask:

"So, what are you feeling right now? Short of breath? Nauseated? Dizzy? Does it feel the same as when Jonesy dropped you last week with that left kick to the liver?" :icon_chee

 

[xinster]

Right hook to the body is a great shot. I've probably put more people to a knee with that punch than a left hook to the body.

my left always looks for the floating ribs, where shouyld my right be looking for?

 

[MuayThaiNinja]

doesnt the ribcage protect the liver?

 

[Centaur]

doesnt the ribcage protect the liver?

Too some degree, yes.

But trust me, you still feel it when the blow lands.

and for those looking for the spleen;

Thats fucking hilarious, cause I've seen it done!!

 

[OwMyArm]

Interesting---I love hearing anecdotal reports like this. I'm so damn interested in this right now, I'd probably drop a guy with a right hook, and then lean over top of him as he lays in a crumpled heap and ask:

"So, what are you feeling right now? Short of breath? Nauseated? Dizzy? Does it feel the same as when Jonesy dropped you last week with that left kick to the liver?" :icon_chee

Tell me now, while the experience is still fresh

 

[mschatz]

Come on dude. If youre going to bump an old thread, do it to add something constructive to the discussion.

 

[soldier99]

I know this is four years old but I just got a shot the left side and it hurts like hell! Actually a couple of months ago I got a good kick to the left and I stayed injured for a very long time. So for the past couple weeks I felt like I was finally good again. Then today I took a punch to the left side from behind and it killed. My injury is back and I can't explain how angry I am to have this stupid injury!

Spleen shots are deadly I know cause I've suffered them

 

[KyleInAction]

^ thanks for digging this up. I hadn't seen it before, good information.