The importance of closed guard

[sha]

Obviously closed guard is a strong position with a gi, and even without it or in MMA it's a great position to be in when you're on the bottom.

But traditional BJJ goes further than this and tells us it's THE best position from the bottom. After all, a lot of people training BJJ now want to compete in no-gi and MMA, and for those closed guard is not always effective.

I wonder if it's time to reconsider this and let closed guard be just another position, not any better or worse than half guard or open guard ?

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

I disagree with your assertion that BJJ holds out closed guard as the best guard.

It certainly can offer more control than half guard and some open guard options...but that has more to do with the level of practitioner.

I think closed guard is learned first, because it's the most basic one to understand. The closing of the legs keeps things a bit slower, allowing the noob holding guard to feel more comfortable.

Open guards up the risk and reward.....so they are left until later to learn, as they seem to be more advanced.

 

[platfox]

If you watch white belt and a lot of blue belt competitions, closed guard is used far more than any other guard. Purple and higher seem to go straight for half guard. I don't think Ive ever even seen my instructor use a closed guard, ever.

 

[BJJ NINJA]

I think it's funny to refer to regular BJJ as traditional BJJ. As is training without a gi on automatically means you're training new and enhanced moves that never existed in regular BJJ.

 

[dza76wutang]

Closed guard removes options for both of you. I think that's why higher level guys deviate from it. Open guard(s) flowing into eachother provide more options and room for deceit, combos and subs.

 

[masada555]

It's worth noting that in JIU-JITSU UNIVERSITY, Saulo writes that the closed guard is so powerful and dominating that you almost don't need open guard...I'm paraphrasing.

Also, this issue has come up time and again on this forum and other BJJ forums and most black belts who have posted on this issue agree that (1) closed guard can be a VERY advanced guard and (2) you don't really "get" the closed guard until brown-belt level or thereabouts.

 

[platfox]

It's worth noting that in JIU-JITSU UNIVERSITY, Saulo writes that the closed guard is so powerful and dominating that you almost don't need open guard...I'm paraphrasing.

Also, this issue has come up time and again on this forum and other BJJ forums and most black belts who have posted on this issue agree that (1) closed guard can be a VERY advanced guard and (2) you don't really "get" the closed guard until brown-belt level or thereabouts.

I'll just say that there is no one correct answer as to which guard is better because it depends on the player. But we can make assumptions from the guards that the different skill leveled players use, and it seems that most higher belts play an open or half guard.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

It's worth noting that in JIU-JITSU UNIVERSITY, Saulo writes that the closed guard is so powerful and dominating that you almost don't need open guard...I'm paraphrasing.

Hmmm. I guess I've never really seen that in his text. I see such statements as:

"Open before closed: Whenever I teach the guard, I emphasize the Open Guard over the Closed Guard. This is because Closed Guard gives you the sensation that you are safe....Although the closed guard is certainly effective, it gives you a limited world in which to work, while Open Guard expands your horizons." Pg. 96. Section 3-4

OR

"Though this position (open guard" is a great weapon to have, it can also be debilitating to overall guard improvement. This is because the position can be so strong the students often forego necessary open guard development." Intro to closed guard, page 99.

 

[HEAVY GRAPPLER]

ShaneRice told me Rickson calls the closed guard 'the heart and soul of jiu jitsu.' I didn't take this to mean it was the best guard, just that it was an essential guard to master.

It just so happens that for me right now, it is the best guard. But I am diversifying.

 

[thegreenblender]

It gives you a lot of control over the guy, which I think lends itself to generally being a more "self-defense" type of guard. Hold the guy close, avoid damage, etc. In modern day MMA, with guys with good technique, etc. this obviously isn't necessarily true.

Truth be told, if I was on the street, and I was in a position where I was forced to my back (NO, I wouldn't pull guard), I'd rather get closed guard and control him, so he couldn't attempt to stand up and stomp me or pound me while I'm trying to finesse half. From there the first thing I'd try to do is try to get back on top.....hip bump, pendulum, guillotine with elevator, whatever...but I think this would be very effective against a n00b.

Also, if you've got a guy with a simply phenomenal base who you aren't going to sweep AND you don't want to stand with in MMA (see: heavy handed wrestlers), it's good to have a crafty closed guard to fall back on. Dustin Hazelett, Aoki, Roger, etc... Everybody should have some subs off their back to at least threaten with, and let's face it, closed guard is probably the primary "submission" guard. That's certainly not the high percentage route, but it's better than taking desperate shots over and over on the feet and eating punches in between.


Guess that's why it's called the "guard", it's kind of your last defense.

 

[Shemhazai]

Truth be told, if I was on the street, and I was in a position where I was forced to my back (NO, I wouldn't pull guard), I'd rather get closed guard and control him, so he couldn't attempt to stand up and stomp me or pound me while I'm trying to finesse half. From there the first thing I'd try to do is try to get back on top.....hip bump, pendulum, guillotine with elevator, whatever...but I think this would be very effective against a n00b.

I would go for open guard with double elbow control and my shins pressing into his biceps. Prevents GNP attempts, as well as him reaching into a pocket for a knife or something. Then just kick out his knee and take mount, or transition to an omoplata.

 

[sha]

ShaneRice told me Rickson calls the closed guard 'the heart and soul of jiu jitsu.' I didn't take this to mean it was the best guard, just that it was an essential guard to master.

Well, should it be the "heart and soul" ? If someone is learning BJJ to fight MMA or No-gi, should the heart and soul be a position where there is a low chance of finishing the fight and a high chance of stalling ?

To look at the same problem from a different point of view: I have personally almost never seen any BJJ instructor teach standing up escapes besides the normal technical standup. But in MMA and No-gi you see people escape from bad positions by giving up their backs and standing up all the time, and it works. But since "you should never give up you back", nobody teaches it.

I guess I'm just seeing a disconnect between the content of a regular BJJ class and what's actually used in competition. I don't want BJJ to take that path, so I think it's important to think about what we are learning.

Also, someone has cited Aoki and Hazelett. They both use rubber guard, which is a little different, and they're also extremely flexible. Don't forget BJJ is not supposed to be attribute-based. As for Roger, he's a great example of a dangerous guard player, but I can also find you dozens of high level black belts competing in MMA and being unable to mount an attack from closed guard against a far worse BJJ player than them.