the grappling in Pancrase

man I absolutely adore watching old school pancrase stuff...I'd love to compete under these rules...damn the matches are entertaining...hyper realistic striking and insanely entertaining grappling exchanges... the fact it was bare hand meant you really had to pick your shots and because of no strikes on the ground it really opened up the grappling exchanges, people willing to try risky stuff

but for me, the grappling is what made it so entertaining...so many transitions...so many leg locks...so many unique unorthodox subs, cranks, chest compressions, diving toe holds, spinning knee bars it was great

why was the grappling so entertaining...I don't think it was just because of no strikes, although that probably that obviously opened up the exchanges...was it mainly the styles of the participants? what is this Japanese style i'd love to know more

[YT]AV-R_a3Kq-A[/YT]

 

No strikes was a big part of it. Also the Japanese style of submission before position, though since you didn't necessarily get a ton of time on the ground it also made a lot of sense to go after subs like crazy.

 

its definitely the japanese style, influenced by puroresu showmanship.

daisuke nakamura is a perfect example in mma.

 

It was entertaining because most of it was fake as fuck.

 

pretty much.

there were certanly lots of real matches, but a shit ton of fake ones too...

Also, leglocks were much easier to pull becasue of the boots.

 

I heard that's a common misconception and that there were only as many as 4 or 5 works

 

^ that you know of. There's been more than enough talk of more works, but i'd be willing to bet majority were legit despite a high amount of works.

 

A statement made mostly by people whose reputation as actual fighters hinges in large part on participation in Pancrase.

I actually think its the exact opposite, and that there are fewer actual shoots in the Pancrase library than most people think. Like, almost none.

All those classic matches featuring Bas, Ken, Frank etc...I used to love those back in the early 2000s but now that I actually have grappling experience I go back and watch them and think..."nobody actually does it like that. Nobody reacts like that." The grappling in those matches is either bad, or fake. Sorry.

I think some of the works were simply better choreographed than others, but that in most of those matches, the winner and the flow of events was largely pre-determined.

 

I was always of the thought that it was bad grappling from years of reinforced puroresu habits. How else could Ken Shamrock have lost so dismally to Royce?

 

yet how did ken almost kill royce at the end

 

If by "kill Royce" you mean lay on top of him for 36 minutes and do nothing whatsoever, but attempt to get a draw... yeah "kill Royce", sure..

 

Yeah, I'm inclined to believe that as well. I mean, I reverse other white belts who straight up relinquish position for leglocks all the time.. that doesn't mean it's worked, it just means they tried to go for a move without understanding what makes it successful on a consistent basis, which is probably what Ken was guilty of.

Ken's submissions were good but he did not seem to be well-versed in maintaining positioning or the transitions between positions.

 

he reduced his vision permanently by punching him in his eye and royce had to be helped up by his family

 

Daisuke Nakamura is one of the most underrated Japanese grapplers and MMA guys around. Very good and entertaining.

 

I loved their rules. After I heard about the fixing I can't help but think about it now when I watch

 

You have nothing to base that on besides your lack of knowledge of that type of grappling.

 

In bas ruttens fight videos on his page he talks about how limited his grappling knowledge was back then

 

There is no doubt about this. Frank only had maybe 6 months training total when he originally started. It was all a lot of scrambling!

 

Frank Shamrock fought Allen Goes with a little over a year of martial arts training. Do people think Goes would "work" that fight?

 

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