Social The free Market determined Ben Askren didn't deserve a lung transplant

[IanEdwards]

oh jesus christ and now you are referring to what normal people call 'trade' as 'economic support' fuck me, you've jumped the shark entirely, what next, trade imbalances = exporter nations taking advantage of importer nations? I'll leave you to it

 

[Rational Poster]

oh jesus christ and now you are referring to what normal people call 'trade' as 'economic support' fuck me, you've jumped the shark entirely, what next, trade imbalances = exporter nations taking advantage of importer nations? I'll leave you to it

How is trade not economic support?

It is an exchange of goods and services in return for exponential wealth and job creation.

Not only is it a form of economic support, it's one of the most powerful and mutually beneficial.

 

[Beechwood]

We had a family friend that had a lung transplant. He was just a regular working class fellow. Sadly he passed away a year or two after receiving the transplant leaving young kids. I didn't know him other than when we were quite young kids. Our mom's had kept in touch over the years.

 

[The XL]

We can argue whether or not healthcare should be a right, and there is a valid argument for it. The issue here is the fact that people with insurance and legitimate claims are being denied life saving care. This is fraud and murder or attempted murder, depending on how a case in question shakes out.

Brian Thompson was a bigger murderer and scumbag than Luigi Mangioni is. That's why no one gives a fuck that he was killed, and people are sympathetic to Mangioni. The fact that government allows this mass fraud and murder from these insurance companies to persist shows how corrupt and evil they are as well. Whether or not these actions by these companies have been deemed illegal by our bought and paid for government is irrelevant, most of the most evil acts in human history have been committed under the guise of legal positivism.

 

[curryjunkie]

I mean this just reinforces my point, those systems are funded in part by US trade and investment into the US market. We buy goods, they get money, they use the money we trade them for healthcare.

 

[helltoupee]

Where ? Send location. If I tried to live off the grid anywhere around me I would get shut down immediately.... unless of course i did it in the city center while high on crack

Why do you even ask?

There are plenty of deserted islands out in the Pacific - the Amazon basin, Congo, etc.

You want to live "off grid" but be close enough to SOCIETY, because you know you can't make it on your own. If you truly think that all of the comforts of society should be afforded to you without having to chip in and pay for it, then it's about like having a conversation with a 5yo child who wants everything in the toy store and has no appreciation for the fact that someone has to pay for it.

You don't want to live "off grid", otherwise you would be out there in one of the places I mentioned, far from taxes and those aforementioned conveniences. You want your cake and the ability to eat it too.

 

[Lycandroid]

Why do you even ask?

There are plenty of deserted islands out in the Pacific - the Amazon basin, Congo, etc.

You want to live "off grid" but be close enough to SOCIETY, because you know you can't make it on your own. If you truly think that all of the comforts of society should be afforded to you without having to chip in and pay for it, then it's about like having a conversation with a 5yo child who wants everything in the toy store and has no appreciation for the fact that someone has to pay for it.

You don't want to live "off grid", otherwise you would be out there in one of the places I mentioned, far from taxes and those aforementioned conveniences. You want your cake and the ability to eat it too.

People who want to live off grid don't want all the comforts of society, living off grid is a rejection of that. If anything is childlike it is the inability to be self sufficient and being unable to survive without proximity to society.

 

[joy2day]

For those who think socialized medicine is the answer to this, it isn't that simple. Take the UK for example- you have much longer waits for care than you do in the US- and this kills people. Not only does socialized medicine have to cover more people who aren't paying anything, but there are less doctors because doctors don't make as much money in that system, leading to an even bigger shortage than in other places.

Long NHS delays are demonstrably linked to increased mortality. Studies estimate one excess death for every 72 patients waiting 8–12 hours in A&E, amounting to over 14,000 excess deaths annually, with the risk of death more than doubling after a 12-hour wait . Beyond emergency care, the elective-care backlog has swelled to over 6 million patients, with hundreds of thousands waiting more than 12 months for treatment, exacerbating chronic conditions and sometimes proving fatal . High-profile cases—such as the 13-year-old Martha Mills’s sepsis death leading to “Martha’s Rule,” and Alice Litman’s suicide after a 1,023-day wait for gender-affirming care—underscore how waits can directly cost lives

1. Emergency Department (A&E) Delays​

1.1 Scale of the Problem​

• In December 2022, 37,837 patients in England waited over 12 hours for admission after an A&E decision—an increase of 255% since 2021 and over 3,000% since 2019
• By late 2024, nearly 677,000 patients (29% of attendances) waited more than 4 hours to be seen, far missing the 95% target

1.2 Mortality Risk​

• Patients spending over 12 hours in A&E are more than twice as likely to die within 30 days compared with those seen within 2 hours
• For every 72 patients waiting 8–12 hours, there is one additional death; in 2023–24 this equated to over 14,000 excess deaths in England alone
• Even waits of 3 hours raise 30-day mortality by 10%, rising to 60% at 6 hours, 90% at 9 hours, and 110% at 12 hours

2. Elective Care Backlogs​

2.1 Growing Waiting Lists​

• As of September 2024, approximately 6.3 million patients were on England’s elective-care waiting list—up from 2 million in 2008—reflecting a pandemic-exacerbated backlog
• Over 400,000 patients waited more than 12 months for consultant-led treatment, and more than 2 million waited over 18 weeks

2.2 Health Consequences​

• Prolonged waits for procedures like hip and knee replacements can lead to worsening pain, reduced mobility, and increased risk of complications, including cardiovascular events
• Mental-health service delays can be fatal: Alice Litman waited over 1,000 days for gender-identity care and died by suicide, prompting a coroner’s report on preventable deaths due to excessive waits

3. High-Profile Cases and Policy Responses​

3.1 Sepsis and “Martha’s Rule”​

• The death of 13-year-old Martha Mills from undiagnosed sepsis spurred the NHS to allow families to request urgent second opinions; early data show 129 life-saving interventions in six months

3.2 Systemic Reforms Under Consideration​

• The UK government’s 10-year NHS reform plan aims to shift care toward community and preventive services to reduce hospital waits
• Critics argue that without addressing socio-economic determinants and funding constraints, long waits—and associated deaths—will persist

4. Conclusion​

Yes—there is robust evidence that extended waits in the UK’s NHS lead to excess mortality across emergency and elective services. While the UK’s single-payer system removes financial barriers at the point of care, capacity constraints and resource shortages mean that patients can—and do—die waiting for timely treatment. .

 

[curryjunkie]

For those who think socialized medicine is the answer to this, it isn't that simple. Take the UK for example- you have much longer waits for care than you do in the US- and this kills people. Not only does socialized medicine have to cover more people who aren't paying anything, but there are less doctors because doctors don't make as much money in that system, leading to an even bigger shortage than in other places.

Long NHS delays are demonstrably linked to increased mortality. Studies estimate one excess death for every 72 patients waiting 8–12 hours in A&E, amounting to over 14,000 excess deaths annually, with the risk of death more than doubling after a 12-hour wait . Beyond emergency care, the elective-care backlog has swelled to over 6 million patients, with hundreds of thousands waiting more than 12 months for treatment, exacerbating chronic conditions and sometimes proving fatal . High-profile cases—such as the 13-year-old Martha Mills’s sepsis death leading to “Martha’s Rule,” and Alice Litman’s suicide after a 1,023-day wait for gender-affirming care—underscore how waits can directly cost lives

1. Emergency Department (A&E) Delays​

1.1 Scale of the Problem​

• In December 2022, 37,837 patients in England waited over 12 hours for admission after an A&E decision—an increase of 255% since 2021 and over 3,000% since 2019
• By late 2024, nearly 677,000 patients (29% of attendances) waited more than 4 hours to be seen, far missing the 95% target

1.2 Mortality Risk​

• Patients spending over 12 hours in A&E are more than twice as likely to die within 30 days compared with those seen within 2 hours
• For every 72 patients waiting 8–12 hours, there is one additional death; in 2023–24 this equated to over 14,000 excess deaths in England alone
• Even waits of 3 hours raise 30-day mortality by 10%, rising to 60% at 6 hours, 90% at 9 hours, and 110% at 12 hours

2. Elective Care Backlogs​

2.1 Growing Waiting Lists​

• As of September 2024, approximately 6.3 million patients were on England’s elective-care waiting list—up from 2 million in 2008—reflecting a pandemic-exacerbated backlog
• Over 400,000 patients waited more than 12 months for consultant-led treatment, and more than 2 million waited over 18 weeks

2.2 Health Consequences​

• Prolonged waits for procedures like hip and knee replacements can lead to worsening pain, reduced mobility, and increased risk of complications, including cardiovascular events
• Mental-health service delays can be fatal: Alice Litman waited over 1,000 days for gender-identity care and died by suicide, prompting a coroner’s report on preventable deaths due to excessive waits

3. High-Profile Cases and Policy Responses​

3.1 Sepsis and “Martha’s Rule”​

• The death of 13-year-old Martha Mills from undiagnosed sepsis spurred the NHS to allow families to request urgent second opinions; early data show 129 life-saving interventions in six months

3.2 Systemic Reforms Under Consideration​

• The UK government’s 10-year NHS reform plan aims to shift care toward community and preventive services to reduce hospital waits
• Critics argue that without addressing socio-economic determinants and funding constraints, long waits—and associated deaths—will persist

4. Conclusion​

Yes—there is robust evidence that extended waits in the UK’s NHS lead to excess mortality across emergency and elective services. While the UK’s single-payer system removes financial barriers at the point of care, capacity constraints and resource shortages mean that patients can—and do—die waiting for timely treatment. .

Of course extended waits lead to excess mortality, but it's not the fact that it's a universal system that causes it, it's underfunding and decades of attempts to private it by greedy politicians against the will of the vast majority of voters. Guess what, not being able to afford private healthcare leads to excess mortality as well..

 

[joy2day]

Of course extended waits lead to excess mortality, but it's not the fact that it's a universal system that causes it, it's underfunding and decades of attempts to private it by greedy politicians against the will of the vast majority of voters. Guess what, not being able to afford private healthcare leads to excess mortality as well..

You made my point for me- both systems cause death.

Yes there are political problems in the UK system, but that is true under EVERY system in the world, and there is no healthcare system that is operating great anywhere- it's a complicated thing no matter how you slice it.

There are problems with both. The doctor shortage worldwide DOES severely hurt those places where medicine is socialized because you don't give anyone an incentive to be a doctor if they have to go through all of that shit to get licensed then they still don't get paid well.

The best system has not yet been implemented because none of them work very well. My point is you aren't going to demonize one system over another because of a single case like Askren. It isn't that simple.

 

[Fluffernutter]

Honest question, is insurance really an example of the free market?

 

[curryjunkie]

You made my point for me- both systems cause death.

Yes there are political problems in the UK system, but that is true under EVERY system in the world, and there is no healthcare system that is operating great anywhere- it's a complicated thing no matter how you slice it.

There are problems with both. The doctor shortage worldwide DOES severely hurt those places where medicine is socialized because you don't give anyone an incentive to be a doctor if they have to go through all of that shit to get licensed then they still don't get paid well.

The best system has not yet been implemented because none of them work very well. My point is you aren't going to demonize one system over another because of a single case like Askren. It isn't that simple.

I'm refuting the argument right wingers trot out that socialized medicine doesn't work, it costs nearly 3 times as much per capita in the American system and the USA ranks last on lists of healthcare rankings of high income countries.

 

[joy2day]

I'm refuting the argument right wingers trot out that socialized medicine doesn't work, it costs nearly 3 times as much per capita in the American system and the USA ranks last on lists of healthcare rankings of high income countries.

I love the way people read from a script with their views. Unfortunately, I'm not a right winger, I'm a person who calls it as they see it; I don't read from the script of any ideology like you do.

The systems both have their problems, and which is better is a matter of opinion. Your arguments can all be refuted also, but I'm not going to get into script reading. You didn't refute any of MY arguments BTW- you just shifted the subject.

For me, I came from a poor family, worked my ass off going to school while working shit jobs at the same time, got better jobs after graduating, then had to work my ass off to pay back 100K in student loans. After all of that, I make good money and have good healthcare which I can pay for. Do I want to be someplace where I do all of that and still get shitty healthcare after all of that work, which would happen anywhere there is socialized medicine? No. Not my preference. I like this system much better where you get rewarded for working hard for success, and taxes are low so you can get your own good healthcare.

As far as what is best for everyone, that is a different question, but it is a complex one. The idea that socialized medicine is "better" is only an opinion. They have a lot of problems in that system too. There isn't a single place that doesn't have a lot of problems in either system, except a few very small and rich countries that don't face the same realities.

 

[Cid]

Elect this guy in. He seems to have the inside scoop on everything. Amazing.

Knowing the 1.2m people strong People's Armed Police Force exists and isn't part of the official defense spending isn't some magic knowledge. China is relatively upfront about the PLA's budget. PAPF not so much. Hence the need to estimate.

It's all available on Wikipedia. Hardly an inside scoop.

People's Armed Police - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Russia I can understand. No Wikipedia page for Nabiullina's financial wizardry. Will be in the future but not right now.

Actually nah.

You should know the Russian spending is much higher because Russia is engaged in a peer war. You know how propaganda works right? At the most basic level if you're in a peer war you're lying about this stuff.

You're not going to believe any official Russian casualty reports are you?

Like I said estimates are spending is double the official numbers.

 

[tastaylvr]

American life expectancy is 5 years worse than the UK but socialism health bad lol

 

[tastaylvr]

I love the way people read from a script with their views. Unfortunately, I'm not a right winger, I'm a person who calls it as they see it; I don't read from the script of any ideology like you do.

The systems both have their problems, and which is better is a matter of opinion. Your arguments can all be refuted also, but I'm not going to get into script reading. You didn't refute any of MY arguments BTW- you just shifted the subject.

For me, I came from a poor family, worked my ass off going to school while working shit jobs at the same time, got better jobs after graduating, then had to work my ass off to pay back 100K in student loans. After all of that, I make good money and have good healthcare which I can pay for. Do I want to be someplace where I do all of that and still get shitty healthcare after all of that work, which would happen anywhere there is socialized medicine? No. Not my preference. I like this system much better where you get rewarded for working hard for success, and taxes are low so you can get your own good healthcare.

As far as what is best for everyone, that is a different question, but it is a complex one. The idea that socialized medicine is "better" is only an opinion. They have a lot of problems in that system too. There isn't a single place that doesn't have a lot of problems in either system, except a few very small and rich countries that don't face the same realities.

Do you understand that private health care exists in these countries too right? Or do you think the rich millionaires waiting in line at a public hospital?

In Australia for example once you earn above a certain threshold you are incentivised to get private health insurance to avoid paying a Medicare Levi. We don’t need to use the same public hospitals lol

In this situation you would still get better health care. The point about America having a shit health care system isn’t an “opinion” it’s a fact lol

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

For those who think socialized medicine is the answer to this, it isn't that simple. Take the UK for example- you have much longer waits for care than you do in the US- and this kills people. Not only does socialized medicine have to cover more people who aren't paying anything, but there are less doctors because doctors don't make as much money in that system, leading to an even bigger shortage than in other places.

Long NHS delays are demonstrably linked to increased mortality. Studies estimate one excess death for every 72 patients waiting 8–12 hours in A&E, amounting to over 14,000 excess deaths annually, with the risk of death more than doubling after a 12-hour wait . Beyond emergency care, the elective-care backlog has swelled to over 6 million patients, with hundreds of thousands waiting more than 12 months for treatment, exacerbating chronic conditions and sometimes proving fatal . High-profile cases—such as the 13-year-old Martha Mills’s sepsis death leading to “Martha’s Rule,” and Alice Litman’s suicide after a 1,023-day wait for gender-affirming care—underscore how waits can directly cost lives

1. Emergency Department (A&E) Delays​

1.1 Scale of the Problem​

• In December 2022, 37,837 patients in England waited over 12 hours for admission after an A&E decision—an increase of 255% since 2021 and over 3,000% since 2019
• By late 2024, nearly 677,000 patients (29% of attendances) waited more than 4 hours to be seen, far missing the 95% target

1.2 Mortality Risk​

• Patients spending over 12 hours in A&E are more than twice as likely to die within 30 days compared with those seen within 2 hours
• For every 72 patients waiting 8–12 hours, there is one additional death; in 2023–24 this equated to over 14,000 excess deaths in England alone
• Even waits of 3 hours raise 30-day mortality by 10%, rising to 60% at 6 hours, 90% at 9 hours, and 110% at 12 hours

2. Elective Care Backlogs​

2.1 Growing Waiting Lists​

• As of September 2024, approximately 6.3 million patients were on England’s elective-care waiting list—up from 2 million in 2008—reflecting a pandemic-exacerbated backlog
• Over 400,000 patients waited more than 12 months for consultant-led treatment, and more than 2 million waited over 18 weeks

2.2 Health Consequences​

• Prolonged waits for procedures like hip and knee replacements can lead to worsening pain, reduced mobility, and increased risk of complications, including cardiovascular events
• Mental-health service delays can be fatal: Alice Litman waited over 1,000 days for gender-identity care and died by suicide, prompting a coroner’s report on preventable deaths due to excessive waits

3. High-Profile Cases and Policy Responses​

3.1 Sepsis and “Martha’s Rule”​

• The death of 13-year-old Martha Mills from undiagnosed sepsis spurred the NHS to allow families to request urgent second opinions; early data show 129 life-saving interventions in six months

3.2 Systemic Reforms Under Consideration​

• The UK government’s 10-year NHS reform plan aims to shift care toward community and preventive services to reduce hospital waits
• Critics argue that without addressing socio-economic determinants and funding constraints, long waits—and associated deaths—will persist

4. Conclusion​

Yes—there is robust evidence that extended waits in the UK’s NHS lead to excess mortality across emergency and elective services. While the UK’s single-payer system removes financial barriers at the point of care, capacity constraints and resource shortages mean that patients can—and do—die waiting for timely treatment. .

No idea about the UK but here we have both universal healthcare and you can also have your private insurance or even pay out of pocket. I have insurance and pay out of pocket when I need some specialist, but poor people can rely on the public system, it's not great but it gets the job done for most.

So, if you already have insurance, the creation of a universal healthcare system wouldn't force you to wait months and months for an appointment. Nor would stop you from paying hundreds of thousands of dollars if you are rich and want the best surgeon in the world.

 

[Ezekiel 25:17]

Knowing the 1.2m people strong People's Armed Police Force exists and isn't part of the official defense spending isn't some magic knowledge. China is relatively upfront about the PLA's budget. PAPF not so much. Hence the need to estimate.

It's all available on Wikipedia. Hardly an inside scoop.

People's Armed Police - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Russia I can understand. No Wikipedia page for Nabiullina's financial wizardry. Will be in the future but not right now.

Actually nah.

You should know the Russian spending is much higher because Russia is engaged in a peer war. You know how propaganda works right? At the most basic level if you're in a peer war you're lying about this stuff.

You're not going to believe any official Russian casualty reports are you?

Like I said estimates are spending is double the official numbers.

Again. What does any of this have to do with the fact that your spending for military/defence is still outrageously higher then anything else. And why are you not even close to the top 10 nations for health care considering you are touted as the top dog nation. You guys dance around these questions like seasoned politicians. Aka bullshit artists.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Do you understand that private health care exists in these countries too right? Or do you think the rich millionaires waiting in line at a public hospital?

In Australia for example once you earn above a certain threshold you are incentivised to get private health insurance to avoid paying a Medicare Levi. We don’t need to use the same public hospitals lol

In this situation you would still get better health care. The point about America having a shit health care system isn’t an “opinion” it’s a fact lol

Yeah, I don't even know why I replied to him. It's pretty obvious.
Universal healthcare does not make it illegal to pay for your private doctors nor does it make health insurance illegal.
It's like thinking that food stamps make it illegal to buy food with money.

 

[joy2day]

Do you understand that private health care exists in these countries too right? Or do you think the rich millionaires waiting in line at a public hospital?

In Australia for example once you earn above a certain threshold you are incentivised to get private health insurance to avoid paying a Medicare Levi. We don’t need to use the same public hospitals lol

In this situation you would still get better health care. The point about America having a shit health care system isn’t an “opinion” it’s a fact lol

I would answer, but I'm avoiding people that sound like smug assholes.